AND i heard eddie bravo and joe rogan are gay lovers...:)
bonton2,
isn't it weird how some of these guys don't understand what we're
talking about?
Is the gi necessary to excel in Greco Roman competitions?
It must be according to guys like Whaledog.
Is it possible to be blinded by the gi?
Has wearing the gi become a sacred grappling ritual?
I'll end with a beautiful quote from my master JJ Machado (who by
the way disagrees with me on most of the gi arguement)
"If they like the gi so much, why is Royce the only nhb fighter who
wears it?"
That last quote doesn't make any sense. They don't wear it for the same reason that people wouldn't wear gi's in ADCC, it puts them at a disadvantage. The argument wasn't "will a person in a gi beat someone NOT in a gi."
Much respect to Eddie and all he has accomplished.
However, for every one of his theories, I know the likes of Royler, Renzo, and JJ Machado that all would say that gi training will help.
I will stick with their advice for now. I will be interested to see in 5 years how good Eddie's students get (I'm sure they will be great), but I will be willing to bet that they still will not be as dominate on the no gi circuit as your bjj schools.
"If they like the gi so much, why is Royce the only nhb fighter who wears it?"
Yoshida?
"Is the gi necessary to excel in Greco Roman competitions?"It must be according to guys like Whaledog. "Bad analogy. How many of those Greco-Roman wrestlers have also trained freestyle or folk stlye wrestling? Once again, the point is not that a gi is necessary. It is that a gi is a benefit.Here's a better analogy for you:A lot of NFL wide receivers ran sprints for their track teams in highschool and college. Is it necessary to be a sprinter on a track team in order to play wide receiver in the NFL? No. Does a wide receiver benefit by joining the track team, training for sprints and becoming faster? Yes.Training for sprints helps develops a skill that translates into success on the football field. Training in a gi will help develop skills that translate into success in no-gi grappling.Bo knows cross-training, Bravo don't.
"So your saying that just sticking to the gi= no-gi champ? "I guess you donn't know Diddley!"I never said that. I guess you don't know shit.
Eddie,
"isn't it weird how some of these guys don't understand what we're talking about?"
Not really. It's the TKD complex.
"I've been doing things this way for years; my instructor does things this way; a lot of people I like and respect do things this way; I (like everyone else) want to believe that I haven't been wasting my time."
When you tell someone that what they and their teacher are doing is not the most effective way to do something, they get deffensive. It's common.
Sadly, much like many TKD goofballs, it clouds objectivity.
Is the gi good? Absolutely. If you're training for gi competitions.
If you want to get really good at passing the guard, you don't spend 90% of your time on the guy's back.
Practice what you want to play.
That's a major principle behing ALL of BJJ, and when Eddie suggests something that simply follows that principle, people get defensive. No one wants to think that what they're doing isn't the best.
The Gracies, Machados, and unless I'm unaware of some amazing no gi school in brazil, ALL Brazillian BJJ Black Belts spent 90+% of their mat time in a gi. Do you REALLY think they're going to be singing the praises of doing something that they found worked for them?
BTW, while I don't know everyone's rank, I find it hilarious that here we, self-righteous sons of bitches that we are, are arguing with a Eddie, a Black Belt. Of course his rank doesn't make him incapable of being wrong, or mean that we can't/shouldn't disagree with him, but perhaps we should consider this:
If ANY other world famous black belt came on and gave his thoughts on how we should train, would we talk shit w/ him/her as well? Or would we be thankful for their input and see how well it fits into our own game?
The fact that Eddie makes himself accessible seems to really makes people feel like they have the right to be pretty disrespectful.
Anyway, if you want my recipe for success,
Roll, Puff, Roll, Wheeze.
Boogie B
"A lot of NFL wide receivers ran sprints for their track teams in highschool and college. Is it necessary to be a sprinter on a track team in order to play wide receiver in the NFL? No. Does a wide receiver benefit by joining the track team, training for sprints and becoming faster? Yes.
Training for sprints helps develops a skill that translates into success on the football field. Training in a gi will help develop skills that translate into success in no-gi grappling."
Are you saying that the primary benefit for a football player of doing sprints with the track team is the SKILL of doing sprints? Or is it the cardio and conditioning?
"Bad analogy."
Boogie B
"Are you saying that the primary benefit for a football player of doing sprints with the track team is the SKILL of doing sprints? Or is it the cardio and conditioning?"Skill: Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.One major benefit a wide receiver gets from competing in sprints is developing the skill of exploding "out of the blocks." Explosiveness off the line is tremendously important for a wide receiver.Not every NFL wide receiver is going to be a world class sprinter. Not every NFL wide receiver wil have run sprints for his track team. But, the wide receivers who run sprints for their track teams will gain a benefit from doing so.Similarly, not every no-gi "submission specialist" is going to have trained with a gi. But, those who do train with a gi will gain a benefit from doing so.lol @ the haters who don't understand the concept of cross training.
Yes. In fact, I trained strictly no-gi for 1.5 years before I ever put on a gi.
Whaledog,
That is a HORRIBLE analogy... Something closer would be, Should
a Rugby player start off playing American Football?
Your analogy would be something closer to compairing somebody
doing no-gi-JJ also being an armwrestling champion... rather then
cross training in a gi.
XP-Magus
"Whaledog,
That is a HORRIBLE analogy... Something closer would be, Should a Rugby player start off playing American Football?"
I think NFL players should do sprints in a gi.
"One major benefit a wide receiver gets from competing in sprints is developing the skill of exploding "out of the blocks." Explosiveness off the line is tremendously important for a wide receiver."
Exploding is an ability. Explosiveness is a trait.
He goes to the HS team for the ability. He then tries to integrate his ability into his sport, and learns when to use it. THAT is his skill.
Your 'an athlete who does something outside of his sport' analogy is too general to be relevant. The bjj equivalent of YOUR example is a BJJ guy joining a highschool track team to do sprints and get better at exploding, which he'll need in all elements of bjj competition.
You're talking about giving him a physical ability, not a skill. A better analogy would be to have guys play football with uniforms that are easier to grab, so that it's harder to get past them. The problem is, if both guys are wearing these uniforms, then they're both equally handicapped. Perhaps wearing a gi so your opponent can slow you down has no gi application, but not if he's wearing a gi as well.
We should drop the analogy 'cause I think we'll just get lost in a silly debate.
You do raise a good point in cross training. If nothing else, cross training can give you perspective on what you normally do. Is it NECESSARY? No.
I'd say putting a gi on every few months and training with someone who isn't wearing one would do you well.
"Yes. In fact, I trained strictly no-gi for 1.5 years before I ever put on a gi."
I think most people think no gi training is bad because of what they associate exclusivly no gi training with. Luta livre. Idiots training in a basement. Wrestlers who learn a few subs and train on their own. If Rickson opened up a no gi school, would you say his students there would never be as good as the ones at his gi school?
Trick question, he wouldn't show up to either.
The argument I can see for the gi benefitting goes something like: it makes it easier, so you can pick it up faster... It's so much easier to get an armbar with the gi, beginners in gis'll be pulling off armbars in half the time of their no gi counterparts.
True, but you don't need the gi if you're doing it properly, so what they're actually getting better at is bad habits.
Fuck. To think about/train this shit full time...
BB
bonton2,"Yes. In fact, I trained strictly no-gi for 1.5 years before I ever put on a gi." I think most people think no gi training is bad because of what they associate exclusivly no gi training with. Luta livre. Idiots training in a basement. Wrestlers who learn a few subs and train on their own. If Rickson opened up a no gi school, would you say his students there would never be as good as the ones at his gi school?"I trained at Gokor's (under Gokor and Gene Lebell) and at Krav Maga (under Richard Bressler - a bjj black belt - and Oleg Taktarov) for 1.5 years before I put on a gi. I don't consider them "idiots in the basement" types. In fact, I think I got good training.Nevertheless, I saw an definite improvement in my no-gi game once I started wearing a gi. I also saw that certain areas of my game were better than those of people who only wore a gi.That's why I believe that cross training is good and closed minds are bad.
I agree closed minds are bad. That doesn't mean that if I disagree with you that I'm wrong.
Did you continue to train w/ the same guys after you put your gi on? If not, I'd have to say it has more to do with the instructor.
BB
"Did you continue to train w/ the same guys after you put your gi on? If not, I'd have to say it has more to do with the instructor."I continued to train at Gokor's for around 4 months before a new job made the commute too much.I saw an almost immediate improvement because training in a gi forced me to tighten up my game. Certain things I could get away with in no-gi didn't work when I wore a gi, and the refinements I had to make in order to roll in a gi ended up helping my no-gi game.
Was gokor not around or something? Why wasn't he helping you fight better before you put the gi on?
This is what I'm saying. A good no gi teacher won't have to have students rely on the gi to keep tight.
Anyway, I'm tired.
B
lol. Gokor was around. So was Gene. And I was rolling with Harut, little Karo, big Karo, Manvel and all the other top guys at the school (they killed me, btw).
Also, I didn't rely on the gi itself to get a tighter game. I refined my game because when I wore a gi, if I wasn't totally tight (posture, hip position, elbow position, etc), I was ineffective.
I made incremental, hard to describe changes in my game. Changes I would not have made as easily or quickly if I didn't cross train - no matter who the instructor was.
I know this is difficult for you to understand. Eddie, who started in a gi, might never understand. But, many people who make the transition from no-gi to gi have described the same thing happening to them.
I gotta agree with Whaledog on this one. I trained without the gi for years, but once I started to commit to gi training (and no-gi combined) my skills just shot up. Things were tighter. For example, when with the gi, you cant escape by slipping out thru sweat or powering out with a bench press. Rather you have to learn how move your hips in order to maximize your leverage in any position.