I wonder if one of the underlying issues isn't one of control points. There are many ways to control an opponent: gripping the lapel and the sleeve cuffs are two obvious gi-oriented control points. Underhooking the arm, gripping around the waist and controlling the head are three common no-gi-oriented control points.
Obviously there will be grapplers who start with the gi who use mostly gi-oriented control points and gi-oriented submissions (e.g. lapel chokes). There will be other grapplers, like Jean Jacques Machado for instance, who started with the gi but for whatever reason concentrated on the control points that work with and without the gi (e.g. underhooks) and the submissions that work with and without the gi (e.g. armbars). Perhaps it is this second class of grapplers who make the most successful transition to no-gi?
Stephan Kesting
www.grapplearts.com
It will take about 40 min. e-mail me when you are out here mjmalloy97@hotmail.com
"Is lister gi or No gi? What about Hansen? Olav? Sudo? Horn? Some examples please?"Horn is strictly no-gi.Lister started in Sambo and trained bjj with Fabio Santos for many years, so I assume he spent a lot of time in a gi.I don't know about the others.
ttt
Olav Einemo and Hansen are strictly no-gi? They compete in the Mundials, no?
"Want to fight MMA train no Gi, just jui jitsu then train Gi simple."
Undefeated Shooto champ "Shaolin" still trains with the gi.
Of course there's not 30 to 40 submission wizards that are tearing
up the ADCC scene that have never trained in the gi.
About 95% of all PURE GRAPPLING schools train with the gi. And
don't bring up nhb clubs. MMA schools spend about 30% in
wrestling and 30% with striking.
Pure grappling schools that only train without the gi are just now
popping up. How many are there really? Around 10 maybe? I'm
not sure, but I know there's hundreds and hundreds of schools
that train mostly with the gi.
ADCC has always been filled with mostly gi fighters that have
been training for many years, some over 20, that's why they
usually dominate, by points that is. And most of the Japanese
fighters that entered were usually nhb fighters as well, NOT pure
no-gi submission fighters with 10 to 20 years of pure no-gi jiu
jitsu experience.
My philosophy is basically still just a theory because it's going to
take at least 5 years to prove without a shadow of a doubt that
you don't need the gi to be a submission specialist in no-gi
competitions.
"Am I wrong? Is there really like 30 or 40 Mundial competitors out there that are tapping people out left and right without the gi? Name'em.
The reality is that there's 5 or less.
"
Name the no-gi masters that are tapping people out left and right? There are plenty of guys who have trained no-gi grappling and almost everyone of them gets smoked at the ADCC. Just look at how the japanese no-gi grapplers have performed. The majority of the best submission grapplers in the world have a GI background. The best no-gi dudes are ex-wrestlers who do the takedown and stall game like Kerr, Monsen and Barklaev...
"
About 95% of all PURE GRAPPLING schools train with the gi. And don't bring up nhb clubs. MMA schools spend about 30% in wrestling and 30% with striking.
Pure grappling schools that only train without the gi are just now popping up. How many are there really? Around 10 maybe? I'm not sure, but I know there's hundreds and hundreds of schools that train mostly with the gi. "
J-O Einemo and Hansen for exanple train for MMA as much as they train for ADCC and the Mundials so MMA schools can perform in grappling events. Atleast BJJ based MMA schools can =)
Gentlemen, gentlemen, while I've profited greatly from the discussions in this thread (massive thanks to Eddie), I still haven't found much of what I'm looking for: examples of people who best exemplify gi or no-gi grappling and those that transcend these categories.
It's only recently that I've come to realise that adjusting a guard game for no-gi requires a lot more work than a lot of gi specialists let on. (Baret Yoshida's guard style has been an inspiration.) I'm interested in hearing more analysis of individual guys' game for some insight into which styles to emulate in either category.
BTW Genki Sudo is a brown belt in BJJ so the gi does help.
ok, I am now convinced that the gi is required in order to become
a submission machine without the gi.
I don't know how Sakuraba and Jeremy Horn got so good at
submitting their opponents without ever wearing a gi, but you
guys have made some great points.
Starting next week 10th Planet will start having gi classes 3 times
a week.
thanks guys.
good post WhiteWhale
"My philosophy is basically still just a theory because it's going to take at least 5 years to prove without a shadow of a doubt that you don't need the gi to be a submission specialist in no-gi competitions."Of course it's possible to become submission specialist in no-gi without training in a gi. However, you can become a submission specialist faster if you also train with a gi.
gusto,
eddie does have a set coming out.
if you step back, and try to be objective, I think you will have to agree that eddie's logic makes sense.
what makes jiu-jitsu unique, special and effective is that as opposed to other arts, you train for how you fight. not 100% 'cause you don't always use strikes, which you might on the street, but the way we train allows us to get used to a fully resisting opponent.
this differs greatly from a kata mentality.
if you want to be good at.... performing a certain way, in this case, fighting no gi, learning and training the way you would fight (ASSUMING YOUR INSTRUCTOR HAS A GOOD GRASP OF NO GI GRAPPLING... something i think most will agree eddie does) will make you better at the actual performance.
as eddie stated, why isnt' there overwhelming proof? 'cause this art/style is evolving. we grew from brazillians who were using the gi. luta livre guys didn't perform as well because their focus wasn't submission wrestling. just 'cause they took off the gi and sucked, doesn't mean that taking the gi off = sucking.
think objectively. what lesson do you need to learn from wearing a gi, then taking it off that someone who's done that and learned that lesson can't teach you? we go to instructors so we don't have to make the mistakes they did to learn the lessons they have.
i understand the argument that those lessons may have had to be learned by someone who once wore a gi. sure. but we're already there. when you have high level, insightful, creative guys who have fought both gi and no gi, analyzed the differences and determined the lessons to be learned, you don't need to learn the same way they did. they can help share their learnings with their students.
do i think someone who's fought gi 90% of their training career, and only fought no gi in a mostly gi environment would be a good no gi instructor? no. they haven't taken the gi off for a long time and analyzed the no gi game.
i think people get defensive about this 'cause when you train with the gi and have skills with it, someone telling you you won't be as good without it feels like an attack. but if you forget about the personal associations, the argument just makes sense.
now, of course, especially in our current situation - one in which the best guys in the world have trained w/ the gi for twenty years, gi guys will be some of the top guys, and some will still be able to submit guys no gi. however, will it be true in ten years? five? there will always be exceptions, but i don't think so.
it's simply information. be aware of it and it can only help. don't, and it could give you some false expectations.
Boogie B
"Of course it's possible to become submission specialist in no-gi without training in a gi. However, you can become a submission specialist faster if you also train with a gi."
what makes you say this? what examples are you basing this on?
Here's a great example that I just thought of.
I just watched the absolute division from abu dhabi.
Pe De Pano fought some japanese guy... probaly about 160. Pe De Pano is what, 230?
He had his back and couldn't finish him.
everyone thinks garcia's a phenom, and he is. but i think mostly 'cause of how he thinks (which you can see by watching his tapes), more than his athletic ability or natural ability. the sequences he's refined (which come from a specific mentality of constantly attacking) are what allow him to do tap people.
The WAY he holds the back, just a superiour technique to what we're used to (first shown to me by eddie) is what allows him to a) keep everyone's back and b) finish them. It's just a better technique. And Pe De Pano, who no one can argue is amazing, doesn't know it.
It's funny. After learning this control from bravo/garcia, i find myself cringing when watching abu dhabi 'cause there are so many opporunities guys aren't aware of. it's like watching the first few ufcs, knowing what opportunities guys are giving each other, and dying 'cause they aren't going for some obvious moves.
BB
"It's funny. After learning this control from bravo/garcia, i find myself cringing when watching abu dhabi 'cause there are so many opporunities guys aren't aware of. it's like watching the first few ufcs, knowing what opportunities guys are giving each other, and dying 'cause they aren't going for some obvious moves."And note, both Garcia and Bravo trained for many years in a gi.
True. But that doesn't prove causality. Right now, we're not even AT the first generation of no gi fighters, trained w/out the gi. There are wrestlers who learn subs, but it's a different story as the skills they've honed for years were designed for another sport. Everyone knows the difference between takedowns w/ a gi vs. no gi. It's the submission element that we're discussing.
The control I'm talking about is a no gi move (though it works w/ the gi, you just have to forget the guy's wearing one), which is exactly the point. There are different moves for each game. Pe De Pano is stuck in the gi/traditional way of holding the back/choking the opponent. Garcia and Bravo, while both gi guys, said 'hey, what's a better way to do it for this situation' and only go for what's more effective. The fact that they once wore/still wear a gi isn't important. Wearing a gi is not what allowed garcia to discover that control. If anything, wearing a gi would make you NOT want that control, 'cause it doesn't involve the gi, which one would assume you would WANT to use as it theoretically gives you more control.
Yes, they wore gis. It gave them LOTS of skills, but it wasn't wearing the gi that made them better at no gi.
So burnt right now.
BB
lol@ Eddie Bravo getting one lucky tap out (yeah, i said it...LUCKY) and then getting killed in the rest of the tournament to a point where he didnt even want to continue and now he's a "pioneer?" lol. The Gracies are pioneers.
Fact is...the most successful submission grapplers in the world are gi BJJ guys...PERIOD until that fact changes all the other discussion on this thread is moot.
Hmm, listen to a guy who has competed at the highest level of no gi tourneys in the world, or to a opinonated numb nut who continually makes a ass out of himself? I wonder who's opinion holds more merit......
EDIT: That last post Eddie made accidentally made from my
account, so he's gonna re-post it from his account.
Please feel free to let this fuel and gay rumors :)