This is not a troll... and I'm not a Fedor basher or nutrider. I think he's an awesome fighter (like many of you do) but I recognize that he hasn't had a competative fight in years.
In any case - I was thinking about Sylvia vs Fedor. People are saying Tim wins if he can keep it standing, Fedor gets the sub if it hits the ground.
This got me wondering - hasn't Fedor mostly subbed guys with questionable sub defense? I might be forgetting something - but Coleman, Randleman and Hunt, at least, are not that great at sub defense. Now - being able to G&P Mino... that's a feather in your cap... but subbing those other guys (even though his subs did look great - smooth and technical) isn't that impressive, is it? Am I forgetting someone better?
He subbed 185 pounder Lindland
whats it matter if he cant sub the good guys or not he just pounds them into the ground
So? Everyone else he has beaten to a pulp. He didn't sub Nog but a lesser man would have been dead after the beating Fedor gave him.
Fedor can beat you in any way possible. That's what makes him so fucking good.
Who has Randy ever subbed? Fedor's total ground game, Gnp, positioning & control, hip movement, chokes and subs are insanely tight for a HW (although he'll be giving up signifigant weight to Tim).
"People are saying" a lot of shit on this board but Tim has shown that if you can put him on the mat he's in trouble - submitted by Mir, submitted by Arlovski, submitted by Mino.
So it might have as much to do with Tim traditionally not have much sucess on the mat as much as Fedor being dangerous standing, clinching and rolling.
And you can slag on Fedor's opponents all you want but Tim has basically made a name for himself fighting journeymen and 205ers pushed up into the HW ranks. He beat Ricco on the decline and Arlovski in a rubber series.
And nobody has ever finished Nogi btw.
don't forget that with herring, he showed us how much of a beating the human head can take without someone dying. if he can't submit you, he'll just beat you within an inch of your life.
he subbed Coleman. Not alot of guys have done that
Pummeled by Silva - but I recognize that he hasn't had a competative fight in years.
The thing is, those fights which "weren't competitive" (Hunt, HMC) are bad matchups for Tim.
I have a feeling after he beats Tim, people will say Tim was shot.
fedor who?
Crazy Zimmerman - I have a feeling after he beats Tim, people will say Tim was shot.
I'm waiting for it.
If he fights Barnett, "Barnett just lost to Nog, beat a washed up Yoshida"
If he fights Randy, "Randy was old!"
If he fights Nog for a 3rd fucking time "Well, what did you think would happen? Congrats, you beat a guy you already beat twice"
Quite honestly, people will never give this dude credit on this forum when, in reality, he is by far the most dominant fighter to ever be in this sport and will continue to be. He will go down as the best MMA fighter of all time, IMO.
Hey guys - a lot of these responses are making it sound like I'm really bagging on Fedor - I'm not. I think he could certainly sub Sylvia on the ground - I think he could certainly G&P him on the ground. My question was ONLY - is there someone with good sub defense who Fedor subbed? I think Coleman is as close as it comes.
Fedor attacks where his opponent is weakest. If you have good sub defense why would he waste time and energy trying to submit you?
I don't even think Tim will do that well standing. He's got a great jab and he does great when he can prevent his oponent from closing the distance with him. One of Fedor's biggest strengths is his ability to transition from one aspect of teh game to another. He's amazing at closing the distance with punches, transitioning to the clinch, and transitioning to the throw in one seamless motion. Tim may have better pure standup, but I don't think he'll be able to use it effectively, because every time he'll through a punch, he'll get countered, trapped in the clinch and tossed. Tim's got solid double leg defence, but I don't think he's prepared for the Sambo/Judo trips and throws.
As far as Fedor submiting him, i don't think he needs to. He is more than capable to land on top on Tim and poundign him out for a stoppage. The only way I can see Tim winning is cutting Fedor up with an elbow. If the ref sees blood, I think he'll stop the fight.
BigWilliam - Good point.
kot1k - also a good point - I agree.
Pummeled by Silva - "People are saying Tim wins if he can keep it standing, Fedor gets the sub if it hits the ground."
- People may be overly focusing on the submissions game on the ground just because Sylvia has shown himself to be particularly vulnerable to that element.
After all, it's been getting Sylvia down to the ground in the first place that's been the hard part - but once there, his sub defense has been highly questionable all throughout his career.
In fact, except for Monson (who Sylvia was much heavier than, as well as a foot taller - and where Monson has also never been much of a finisher even in ADCC/sub grappling) - Sylvia has been subbed very quickly and easily by every single submissions-skilled fighter who was able to get him down somehow - Mir, Arlovski, and Nog.
Actually, he didn't even last more than several seconds.
So again, it was the getting-to-the-ground part that really posed the critical problem. After that, it was all downhill from there.
But I think Fedor would be much better served by following the Randy game plan, rather than Nog's (who had to weather a beating first before coming back, as he's had a long-established tendency to do).
Besides, the way Randy won over Sylvia was more thoroughly dominating anyway, where he definitively beat Sylvia from start to finish.
And just like Randy, Fedor has also been a successful GnP-er - in fact, the heaviest GnP-er in the HW division (e.g., it is a virtual certainty that no one except the titanium-headed Nog could have withstood the brutal battering that Fedor dished out to him on the ground).
So Fedor hasn't been just a sub-based fighter or someone who often had to be on his back in order to thus have to win from there.
But as for Fedor's finishing skills per se - the greatest HW submissions fighter in MMA history has unquestionably been Nog.
And yet Nog's never finished another HW with a good submissions background, either (e.g., Coleman, Cro Cop, Sylvia, Schilt) - except for Herring.
Which just goes to show you that the established trend is that there just haven't been too many submission finishes between top HW's all throughout MMA.
Plus the Herring example also presents a perfect chance to compare and contrast - because Fedor was able to stop Herring as well - except by way of bludgeoning instead.
Which just serves to underscore the larger point about how Fedor has the dual weapons of GnP in addition to submission skills on the ground.
He hasn't been limited to just one or the other.
Nice analysis, whistleblower. I think you're spot on.
Ramon Maroni - whats it matter if he cant sub the good guys or not he just pounds them into the groundBecause Fedor isn't going to stand with Tim.
To answer the question, not really with regards to a fighter on a higher sub level.
There are different ways to look at Coleman though. Coleman has only been subbed by Fedor and Nog. When Nog tapped him, Coleman was a top ranked guy if not #1 iirc. When Fedor subbed him, he was still up there and Fedor subbed him much quicker than Nog who's known to be the better sub guy though the quickness of a sub isnt necesarily a mark of being the better sub guy. For Fedor detractors, they always mention how ignorant of sub defense Coleman is but those same people never said that when Nog subbed him.
Animal Chin - he showed us how much of a beating the human head can take without someone dying.
I thought that was Igor V vs. Enson at Pride 10...