Jack -
i think the term he is looking for is "MAG CHANGE" -
not re-load
We can all agree to disagree but the real issue here has anyone watched the DVD yet??? I mean an honest review of it would be the best thing to all I believe in this case.
There is also a good review HERE, but you have to join to read it. It is our (Tactical Response's) forum and worth joining if you are into this kind of thing.
"You have never seen someone have to preform an unexpected reload?" - Of course I've seen guys have to do "unexpected" reloads before. When did I say that I had't?
"You have never done a drill, where you shoot with an unknown amount of ammo in your magazine, to see how you perform a reload when its not expected? The whole purpose of the drill is too learn to perform a tactical reload went you dont expect it." - As I pointed out in my first post about this, the tactical reload is done when there is a lull in the fight and you make the concious decision to top the gun off after firing rounds at someone/thing. If you run the gun dry, you conduct an emergency/speed reload.
"A normal reload, is where I walk back and chat with the range master while I reload all my mags." - I'd call that topping off mags or reloading mags....not a "normal reload".
"If i suddenly went empty, stopped, looked around, asked the range master if I could step off the line, footed it to my range bag and started loading magazines - thats not exactly tactical is it? If someone is shooting at me, its really not tactical. " - And that isn't even close to what I'm talking about.
"Thats why we count, so we never have an "emergency reload". Anytime I having an emergency, thats bad, especially in a fire fight. I'd rather count than have any kind of "emergency." " - Again, the round counting thing must be fairly exclusive to Gunsite and Gunsite Alumni.
"this is standard CQB fair, done thousands of times. We proceed from there to transitions. If we cannot safely or effectively reload, we transition to our side arm. for the safety of you, and your whole team, we'd much rather have you using a rifle or a shotgun, than falling back to your handgun. Hence the importance of knowing exactly when you need that reload. " - I'm trained in high risk warrant service and have done one or two so I know about transitions and the advantages of running a long gun over a pistol. And again, in all the training and actual services I've done; I've never heard anyone advocating counting your rounds.
"i think the term he is looking for is "MAG CHANGE" -
not re-load" - uh, nope. I'm talking about reloads.
A Tactical Reload is done when there is a lull in the action and one is presented with the opportunity to bring their weapon back up to full capacity. The partial mag is retained in case those rounds are needed later.
It is commonly accepted that the current interpretation of a Tactical Reload (Tac Reload) was developed by Chuck Taylor when he was the head of operations at Gunsite. Lots and lots of references to this on a google search of Tactical Reload and Gunsite.
tkd -
LOL -
your loast responce to Jack isnt at all what you were talking about in your orginal post -
this came about because you said "oh, when i run dry because i didnt count (or bother to think about conserving ammo and checking to see if the threat stopped, instead you just keep shooting on guy until you ran out of bullets) i just do a tac reload"
which is fucking wrong anyway, because if you run dry, you should do a speed reload, look, assess
"the word i have is if you went to gunsite anytime after cooper sold it, there is a good chance you trained with un-qual. people"
I will preface this that I have never attended a handgun course at Gunsite. However, according to a friend of mine from work who has been to 150, 250, 350, 499 and ATP, Steve Slawson was his rangemaster in 2002 for 499 pistol. Hmmm
My friend also told me that Slawson knew his shit. When I asked him about counting rounds the answer I got was..."I never heard of no shit like that at Gunsite."
You two seem to be the only people I have ever heard of advocate counting rounds.
"i'm telling you what one of the acknowledge best gun fighter/instructor's in the world told me. but being the OG, I guess you know better"
TKDfighter and I are telling you what some of the best gunfighters in the world told us.
Are you saying Howe, Reitz, Rogers, Awerbuck, McCann, Gonzales, Goodale, Hackathorn, and Jeans are wrong?
Scott Reitz has literly been on LAPD SWAT longer than alot of cops have been alive. Rogers was NYPD ESU and Marine Corps Spec. Ops and retired form both. Awerbuck fought bush wars in Africa and was one of Coopers first choices for the original Gunsite. McCann and Goodale helped develop the doctrine for the USMC High Risk Personel course. McCann is also the current dir. of training for Kroll. All are wrong evidently.
The reloads (my way)....
Emergency, Slide lock, Reload w/o retention whatever you want to call it.
Firing from mod-iso when the weapon is at slide lock I use my weak had to slightly shift the weapon in my strong hand to allow positive acess to the magazine release. This is a fluid movement done by relaxing my strong hand grip and draging , for lack of a better term, my support hand on the triggerguard as I move it to retrieve the spare mag. I am doing this as I bring my strong arm back locking my elbow against my side, strong hand approx. at chin level. This creates what I call my workspace. Eye, muzzle and (if possible) threat are all in line. The muzzle out at a slight angle via my arm, my wrist is locked straight. Insert magazine, rack the slide and scan.
Tactical, Reload W/Retention, etc
Same as above except that I do not hit the mag release until I am in my "work space". I remove the magazine from the weapon and place it in my dump pouch back when I was Tactical Ted, now I always place it in my front left pocket. Some people will put it in a cargo pocket but if I am in my dress uniform and not my field uniform I will not have cargo pockets so I train this way to keep a set movement. I then retreive a fresh mag insert it, run the slide and scan.
"Steve Slawson was his rangemaster in 2002 for 499 pistol. Hmmm"
Um, i said GOOD CHANCE
"My friend also told me that Slawson knew his shit. When I asked him about counting rounds the answer I got was..."I never heard of no shit like that at Gunsite."
well, thats what slawson to me, and obviously his own son too.
"Scott Reitz has literly been on LAPD SWAT longer than alot of cops have been alive"
I met Scott - he told me he was on METRO not SWAT - however his bio says
"As a 26-year veteran of the L.A.P.D., Scott has spent 22 years in the elite Metropolitan Division, with 10 years as an operator and instructor in S.W.A.T. "
I'm pretty sure most cops have been alive more then 10 years -
I'd take Slawsons over all of them combined any day - he has more experience, more training, and accomplished more then any of them - he's done what most of the others did combined
i have a few slight problems with the way you change mags(or more to the point, how it differs from the way i was taught), but i wont go into that unless you really want me to -
the thing i find interesting is strong hand approx. at chin level. This creates what I call my workspace. Eye, muzzle and (if possible) threat are all in line.
at least this part is in line with what i was taught, and not what is shown on the video in the 2 places i point out.
Jack urton has on MANY occasions offered up a day at the range with his dad -
a friendly compition - each person picks 2 events -
no one has ever taken him up on it
why havent you guys ever stepped up?
his dad would probally even tell you why what your doing is wrong and correct you -
he has done for people fletc fucked up - etc.
aaron - tickle - tkd - riddlin
how many hours have each of you spent with the all the instructor (seems like you all spend time with the same bunch)
Yes Reitz is METRO I knew that but typed SWAT anyway. None the less you are right and I was wrong.
I dont know who all Aaron and TKD have trained with. However, if you read the post you will see that the only common ground TKD and I have is Reitz, Howe and Gonzales.
The whole problem I have with you and Burton is the attitude that your way is right and everyone else is wrong because they are not Steve Slawson.
To quote Kelly McCann...
"We are all victims of our own experience."
"The whole problem I have with you and Burton is the attitude that your way is right and everyone else is wrong because they are not Steve Slawson."
When I shot with Steve Hendricks he had a few differing points then steve that made very good sense - However when discussing the differences with Slawson, he made sense too -
As did Mike Hughes
However on most of the fundimentals - they all agreed
you can look up their bio's if you like
http://www.gunsite.com/instructors.htm
thing is, col. cooper trusted slawson and hired him on full time as Director of new bussiness development
and Slawsons resume is just too impressive - it goes on forever - from being the head of operations for the middle east for titan security, to simunitions instructor, to sponcered shooter, to big game safari, working for shitloads, upon shitloads of fed, state, and local as trainer, to carring out black ops wit delta - to dea undercover, to exec protection (bill gates), on, and on, and on, and on -
AND BTW - I also shot with a few fist fire instructors - as well -
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=318
check the thread - all three guys i shot with are mentioned here
or here
http://users.binary.net/thomcat/Cooper/Vol3.html (steve henricks)
Now that I have the time........
"your loast responce to Jack isnt at all what you were talking about in your orginal post - " - Let's take a look at what my original reloading post said. I believe it was "I've yet to see a tactical reload that was unexpected. After all the tac load is purposely done during a monetary lull in the fight. An emergency reload is when you run the gun dry." OK, we have that established, now let's look at the second one. "As I pointed out in my first post about this, the tactical reload is done when there is a lull in the fight and you make the concious decision to top the gun off after firing rounds at someone/thing. If you run the gun dry, you conduct an emergency/speed reload." - Damn... that looks just like what I said in the first quote. Don't really see how that is any different now from when I first posted it.
"this came about because you said "oh, when i run dry because i didnt count (or bother to think about conserving ammo and checking to see if the threat stopped, instead you just keep shooting on guy until you ran out of bullets) i just do a tac reload" " - Incorrect. I stated tactical reload is conciously performed during a lull in a fight in order to bring your gun back up to full capacity and an emergency reload is done when you run your gun dry. Infact, what you quoted wasn't said by me at all; it some drivel that you came up with.
"which is fucking wrong anyway, because if you run dry, you should do a speed reload, look, assess " - Maybe that's your Slawson-inspired method. Personally, if my gun runs dry I do an emergency reload, continue to fight until my threat is down, assess the situation, conduct a 361 degree scan, then conduct a tactical reload. That's how I do it.
r - If he sold it over at LF, then I'm the same guy.