ttt for andre's impending video
TrevorRice - andre's tips are dead on. Andre, curious what is your success with the x-choke from the mount (standard lapel choke) vs. the ezequiel choke??
Man, that's tough to say...I'd say that I get the x-choke probably 25% of the time, armbar from the triple attack probably 60%, and ezequiel maybe 10%. The remaining 5% could be any kind of submission I'm luckily able to get because the opportunity presents itself. I didnt factor taking the back into the percentages above...that happens roughly half the time I mount, I think.
S-MOUNT is your friend
TTT for Andre's video!
I like Saulo's approach. Don't know what you guys refer abotu "swinging the leg", but in order to get the knee close to his ear, past his shoulder you have to clear the way by attacking somewhere else. You must make him take that hand out to help him defend in a different spot (americana on the other arm, choke etc.). Two things very important that I've noticed with the S-mount is using the flattened leg to isolate the opposite arm (and keep pressure on that side) and really drive your hips on the hand that you've trapped (and keep weight towards the flattened leg).
The keys to the mount are a good base, sensitivity to your oppents hip movement, and the ability to transition to counter mount and establish that trasition position as a strong base and attack position. The triple attack is my bread and butter from the mount. The neck, the arm, and the back are all there for the taking and lets not forget the triangle choke...but first always focus on keeping your base in mount and teaching your self to keep your legs relaxed and not tensed. Be sensitive to your opponents hip and shrimp movements...learn the complexities of counter mount and knowing when to go to high mount or apply your hooks in again even when your hooks are in your relaxed....if you study the shrimp elbow escape it will help you understand the mount and its counters much better.
it helped me alot to learn how to escape the mount proficiently then I noticed my mount game was becoming sick because of my understanding on how to escape the mount I am able to better apply the mount and all of its delicate counters and movements to maintain your base in mount all while attacking.
There was a thread a while ago where I discussed in great detail the ezekiel specifically and the mount in general.
There was a time when I felt pretty lost in mount. I hated the armbar that most people would go for because I thought it was quite silly to give up the mount and take the chance that the opponent escapes the armbar. I myself became quite adept at escaping mount whenever people tried that armbar on me.
I eventually became very successful with the arm-around-the-face control position, which would lead to numerous armbars, chockes, back mount and s-mount. That's in addition to the ezekiel, which I specialized in ;).
Ultimately my mount improved vastly when I understood and improved my ability to CONTROL from the mount, regardless of any submission attempts. Once I had that part down pat, the submissions came much more easily because I could take my time developing my submissions without worrying about my opponent's escape attempts.
Personally I think the demonstration of the spinning armbar from the mount is a poor technique to teach beginners that leads to bad habits that take time to be unlearned. Anybody else agree?
Lautaro
lautaro -
Personally I think the demonstration of the spinning armbar from the mount is a poor technique to teach beginners that leads to bad habits that take time to be unlearned. Anybody else agree?
Lautaro
Sort of... yeah.
I'm not sure I see the value in that drill. People say: "it's a drill to teach the mechanics". Well, you don't need a separate drill to learn the mechanics of the armbar. Just drill the armbar!
But, some of my prejudice could be because I play slow & tight and would probably never go for an armbar like that. Maybe smaller, faster guys find some benefit in the drill. I don't know. I just know I don't.
I like to play slow and tight as well. When I go for an armbar from the mount, there's no surprise to it. My opponent knows what I'm doing. But because I exert so much pressure they can't easily stop me from getting the armbar. I emphasize complete control over my opponent from beginning to end, as much as possible.
What I don't like about the spinning armbar (with the opponent's back flat on the ground) is that it relies on the opponent's ignorance. I don't like techniques that work on someone who's clueless. I want something that will work on someone who's strong, skilled and determined. I think the spinning armbar was useful in the beginning of the bjj era as a demonstration of what CAN be done from the mount, but certainly not something beginners should try to emulate themselves at their level.
One of the things I found irritating about judo newaza was how they seemed to focus so much on pinning and not enough on submission (compared to bjj). In terms of controlling the opponent, though, I have to confess I felt they were ahead of most bjj guys I practised with. And like I said, it was ultimately my improvement in controlling from the mount that made it a more successful position for me.
So ultimately I would encourage beginners to focus their efforts more on maintaining the mount against a resisting opponent than worrying about submissions. I have swept people countless times because of their attempts to submit me from a weak base. Control before submission. It works.
Lautaro
It teaches you how to move your hips properly while maintaining your balance\base. Also gives you good timing and better understanding of transitions. Eventually will help you with your base after you've lost your position from attemping that armlock your base will eventually become better at least in that position\transition.
let us not forget the triangle fake into mounted gogo-plata. sweet move.
Sorry, but I don't believe the benefits outweigh the faults as it pertains to teaching beginners. It would be like showing a jump spinning back kick as a defense to a jab. Sure, you could learn a lot from that and if you're good enough you can even pull it off (if the opponent sucks).
Watch beginners doing the spinning armbar and count the number of mistakes they make. Then watch as they attempt that on anyone with at least 2-3 months of training. There are quite simply far superior methods of teaching the same principles without compromising the realistic aspect needed to actually use it against a resisting opponent.
Especially nowadays with bjj knowledge at such a high level in general, I don't see the need to perpetuate an out-dated drill. That's how I feel, at any rate.
Lautaro
"Personally I think the demonstration of the spinning armbar from the mount is a poor technique to teach beginners that leads to bad habits that take time to be unlearned. Anybody else agree?"
Yup, I must say I agree 100%. I teach mount maintanence, and a variation of the S-mount even to beginners, and their armlock success rate is MUCH higher than with the old method of doing the spinning arm lock. While it's not a horrible movement to do, it has very little carryover to sparring, and it is not very complex to learn a more applicable version.
mt
I kind of agree as well, but a few years ago I ran into a situation where the spinning armbar from mount got me the submission where an armbar from s mount couldn't work. I was rolling against a much bigger guy and he was trying to bench press me off him. I was trying to get to s mount on him but there was no way because he was strong enough to push me back with just his arms. I had good enough base to not fall off, but I couldn't get high enough on his chest for the s mount. Then I suddenly remembered the old swingin' version and it worked perfectly.
Thanks for sharing, Jonpall. Couple of things. Would the average skilled bjj guy try to bench press you off him? Not unless he was baiting you. Hence my earlier point of it relying on the opponent's ignorance. But I also mentioned a few times that I didn't like it being taught to beginners.
I watched Xande do the spinning armbar in class one day and I'm pretty certain he would've pulled it off on most anyone. When I watched him do it though, his technique was flawless and he remained in control of his opponent throughout. Any technique CAN work, but you have to consider whether what you're doing is a high percentage technique or not.
From this point of view, at the beginners level, I don't feel that it's a good thing to practice because at their level success depends more on the element of surprise than control of the opponent. Beginners will typically raise their butt up off their opponent (giving plenty of time to escape, no pressure on opponent) and then land their butt on the ground a distance away from the opponent's shoulder (as opposed to right up against it, or better yet under their shoulder). There are other errors they make as well, but those two are major ones that result in lack of control and ease of escape for anyone with a few months training.
Lautaro
in no-gi, I love to have head control with one arm and wrap that same arm around the back of their head over top of their shoulder so I am using their armpit as a perfect handle.
From here you can really apply a lot of shoulder pressure to the neck/head area. This forces them to turn their head away from the pressure, which means they cannot roll towards the side with no post. I have had a lot of success controlling opponents from mount this way.
I teach both "principles" that derive in the 2 most common armbars from mount: spinning and from S-mount. I call them the fast armbar and the slow armbar. I want to make them understand that these work in different situation. The fast one: when the other guy pushes you off (clueless, beginners, guys that are punching from underneath in MMA etc.) and you have to understand that you need a "flowish" :) transition. The slow one: when the other guy knows what he's doing and you have to control the whole transition.
I don't like to neglect the self-defense aspects, we don't always fight guys with grappling knowledge.
If it's there, take it. If it's not, go for the slow one.
Hahaha, I like that, Tudor :).
Lautaro
truthisalive - It teaches you how to move your hips properly while maintaining your balance\base. Also gives you good timing and better understanding of transitions. Eventually will help you with your base after you've lost your position from attemping that armlock your base will eventually become better at least in that position\transition.
Well, how is this BETTER than drilling an armbar you will actually use?
For example, should a boxer first learn a "Jab/Cross Drill" with their finger's sticking out, made into loose "Tiger Claws" as preparation for learning the proper "Jab-Cross" combo with closed fists...? After all, it WOULD teach the boxer how to use their hips and the proper timing for the "real" Jab-Cross.
As JRockwell says above:
"it has very little carryover to sparring, and it is not very complex to learn a more applicable version"