Hey guys, I just wanted to let you all know about a thread on Sean Madigan's Big JKD forum that would be of interest to you all. Here's the link:
http://forumco.com/BIGJKD/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3077&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=Boxing+and+the+use+of+Mitts&Forum_Title=1+%2D+Combative+Solutions+Forum
Matt has provided some very interesting thoughts on the matter.
Lautaro
Here's that link in point and click form: Lautaro's link (clicking opens a new window)Just thought I'd help..might as well use my pro member abilities for something useful other than the ring girls webcam cybersex forum. Just kidding about that last part...maybe...you'll have to become a pro member to find out :)
Thanks for the link Frost. Now about those ring girls webcam cybersex forum, we'll have to discuss this further... ;)
Lautaro
I tried to post this on the other forum but could not register, so I'll post here.
Having read Matt Thornton's stuff and seen some of his vids I think that matt is one of the few MA trainers out there that actually gets it. Having said that, I partially disagree with his assessment of pad training.
Pad training is used regularly within the boxing/kickboxing community to hone and develop athlete's abilities. . There are methods of using the pads where a fighter can attack with whatever he wants whenever he wants and the holder is actively fighting against him. This type of freestyle approach is mostly seen in MT but it can be done in boxing as well.
In the hands of a professional trainer, pad work can be as good, if not better than partner drills for developing or isolating certain skills. And can offer a number of advantages that partner work alone cannot. This is especially true when the body protector or belly pad is used because the athlete can hit with full force for ten or twelve rounds. Something that is usually not possible with unprotected partner drills. While it is true that much of the potential benefits of pad training can also be derived from partner drills there are a number of factors that make that approach impractical as a trainer's only method of coaching (besides sparring).
1. Mismatch between athletes.
In a perfect world all your athletes know how to train and can handle themselves appropriately. Unfortunately you often have athletes who don't seem to get it and just use partner drills as another form of competition and not as a training exercise. These athletes tend not to have productive experiences with anyone other than athletes of equal/greater skill. Because of this, in a group environment it is sometimes difficult to pair athletes. Using some type of equipment training provides a viable alternative. Usually this is only a problem with beginners as Matt rightly points out. However, I have worked with and seen many professional athletes that continued to display this behavior despite their skill level. We call them assholes :)For these guys anything other than sparring with a partner is counter productive so you go to pad training.
2. It's a hands on approach.
When an athlete is repeatedly making the same mistake, it is often necessary to step in there and manually correct the error. There are times when you yell at guy from the sidelines and absolutely no progress is made. Spend an hour with him on the pads a few times a week and your back on track again. Putting another fighter out there with him and creating a partner drill is sometimes effective but is often not as efficient as doing it yourself. Now I could (and have) stepped in there with a pair of boxing gloves on to make the same correction. However, when you have a heavy weight, a guy that falls into the "asshole" category or a guy who is younger, stronger and a better athlete then you ever were and he's just one of several athletes you need to work with that night – you break out those pads.
3. Intensity is easily regulated and injuries can be avoided or protected.
Sparring represents a certain amount of risk. Even if a fighter has top notch sparring partners the risk of getting cut, injured or aggravating an existing injury is sometimes too high. This is especially true as a fighter peaks right before a fight. Pad training can be extremely helpful in maintaining peak readiness as sparring tapers off and fight night approaches.
A fighter should spend a comparatively small amount of time with pad training. It is a strategic tool. A scalpel, if you will. Used correctly it's a good tool for coaching.
It has been and continues to be a valuable training aid for those coaches who have taken the time to develop the skill. As a former trainer, if someone had told me to throw out pad training I would have thought they were crazy.
Can you throw it out and still develop skill...yes. Should you throw it out? Well that depends. Honestly the way I see most martial arts guys use the pads and conduct their training, it would be a big improvement if they never touched another pad. Maybe this is where Matt is coming from. If you don't know how or when to use the pads properly then it is largely a waste of your time. A lot of martial arts guys have no clue how to spar properly so learning drills replaces learning the art itself- which is chiefly developed through sparring. But this is never an issue in a boxing gym so pad work just assumes its rightful place in the overall scheme of training.
Regards,
Ryan
Good points Ryan. If you like, I can copy & paste your response on Sean's forum for you. Let me know.
Lautaro
Thanks...if you think it is still relevant. Looks like that disscussion is moving in a different direction.
Ryan
"Honestly the way I see most martial arts guys use the pads and conduct their training, it would be a big improvement if they never touched another pad. Maybe this is where Matt is coming from. If you don't know how or when to use the pads properly then it is largely a waste of your time. A lot of martial arts guys have no clue how to spar properly so learning drills replaces learning the art itself- which is chiefly developed through sparring. But this is never an issue in a boxing gym so pad work just assumes its rightful place in the overall scheme of training."
That's it. Step #1 = go to boxing Gym.
The problem with JKD is that many Instructors think looking good on focus mitts equals having good form.
And also, by reading the various threads posted you can see clearly that often the people posting have little to no practical knowledge regarding the level of skill and power that is involved when dealing with a good pro/am boxer.
My main goal for those guys is just to get them into a boxing Gym.
I realize they will get their head bashed in when they first spar, but it will end all the theoretical nonsense people spout regarding various types of gung fu punches, and other related garbage.
In addition, when taking into context the training of ground, gi and no gi, vale tudo, clinch work (pummeling), and whatever self defense aspects you teach, I believe there are much better ways to maximize time spent working stand up then focus mitts.
So for those with a background in actual boxing I can easily say, 'of course focus mitts have their place, when done correctly.' However, say that to many JKD Instructors who don't have any practical flight time with real boxers and they will cling to that statement as a rationilization for stand up classes that are 90% focus mitt patterns, and silly 24 counts.
Thus the dilema.
-Matt Thornton
www.straightblastgym.com
Matt, I couldn't agree more.
Lautaro
Can you throw it out and still deveplop skill...yes
How can you develop punching skill without hitting something?
New Dragon
New Dragon: It's not about hitting someTHING, it's about hitting someONE. HUGE difference. As Bruce Lee would say, "Boards don't hit back." Aliveness is really the only way to develop actual fighting skill. Without it, you're missing the most crucial aspect of training. This is why hitting a wooden dummy is not considered a viable alternative to sparring. Does that make sense?
Lautaro
Lautaro: Yes and No. First you must know how to hit someone the best most efficient way and with as much power as possible. If you develop your hitting skills to their maximum potential when you do make contact it is going to be a big big difference then if you just basically learn to hit. As for the dummy, you are training your muscle memory as well as your timing skills and learning how to move when your target is bigger and stronger than you and he doesn't give. If you are doing your dummy training properly when you come into contact with a human you will either blow through them or be forced to move by them. Either way you are recieving valuable training if your trying to win the fight early. Nothing can replace sparring for alive training but hitting properly when you do get the chance should go without saying. If your just throwing punches when you get the chance more than likely if the punch misses you are going to be way out of control and open to a counter.
Hmmmm. Ok, as far as hitting someone "the best most efficient way and with as much power as possible", we're in agreement there. That makes obvious sense.
As far as training your "timing" on a wooden dummy, you've totally lost me there. How is your timing being improved when you train with an apparatus that isn't responding to your initial movement? To put it another way, fighters will respond to the slightest stimuli from their opponent and act accordingly, making it much more difficult to get a clean shot on them. This then requires you to develop a greater degree of non-telegraphicness in your attacks and to time your attacks based on your opponent's openings. Again, I don't see how you can train for this sort of thing on a wooden dummy that's just a sitting duck.
Let me ask you this. If you fake a punch at the wooden dummy, how does it react? How about a shoulder feint? What about when you suddenly change levels? Does the wooden dummy react in any way to these things or does it just sit there waiting for you to beat on it some more? Can you see where I'm coming from? Trying to learn timing from a heavy bag, a wooden dummy, a wall or a guy standing there motionless holding pads is just silly, IMO. It totally lacks Aliveness. Without timing, it's not Alive.
Again, I fully agree with putting the most bang for your buck in a punch, but this is STILL best developed through sparring, IMO, because you need to actually HIT the guy. It does you no good to have 600pds-of-force-punches if people see it coming a mile away and you can't hit a decent fighter with it. I'm sure you realize that already, but my point is that hitting your best is already a given. That's not in question. All I'm saying is you need to train against a resisting opponent in order to best develop the ability to actually beat a resisting opponent. Does that make it more clear?
Lautaro
(edited for clarification)
How is your timing improved when you train on a dummy.
First Lautaro have you trained with a dummy? Second did you actually take the time to understand what you are gaining from it? Third did you do this until your muscle memory was such that as soon as you come into contact with someone you will automatically know (do)exactly what to do to land your blow? As for what happens when you fake a punch at the dummy, refer to the second point. It makes no difference whether or not your opponent is moving or still, you will have complete control over your strikes and they will land where desired and with effect, speaking from experience. Don't forget though, you can't train something for just a while, you better get to master level or things won't go the way they should and then the whole technique looks weak when in fact it's the person using it who has weak technique. As for people seeing you a mile away, this speaks volumes. What type of training are you doing? No one sees my hits coming they only feel them. Of course you need to train with live people but only after you have some skills.
Muscle memory = fallacy
Muscle memory = fallacy
Rory tell me about this. How do you describe what happens when you just do things naturally and didn't do anything but feel your opponents force and then make the right things happen and instantly.
There is no memory in muscle. Memory is in the brain. The brain may be trained to recognize a stimulus sooner through repetition. It is very important,therefor, that the stimulus we use in training be relevent to what we would receive in reality. Training with a wooden training dummy is excellent for pinata combat because it mimics what you would likely experience. Against a mobile, skilled, human it may not be the best choice.
If I were in a fight and somehow my arm were chopped off, and a bad guy were to pick it up to bludgeon me with it, would my arm use its "memory" to gouge his eyes?
Jerry
www.centerlinegym.com
"First Lautaro have you trained with a dummy?"
Yes, years ago during my jkd phase.
"Second did you actually take the time to understand what you are gaining from it?"
I thought I had, but I'm interested in hearing your views on the subject.
"Third did you do this until your muscle memory was such that as soon as you come into contact with someone you will automatically know (do)exactly what to do to land your blow?"
From my wooden dummy training? No. Definitely not.
I only started to develop this when I did more and more sparring.
"What type of training are you doing?"
Currently? Bjj and muay thai. Only once in a while do I get to train mma, unfortunately. Was that what you meant, or did I misunderstand your question?
"No one sees my hits coming they only feel them."
Well that's pretty damn good. I'm definitely not there yet. Yesterday during sparring people were commenting on how often I kept hitting them DESPITE seeing the attacks coming. They could see that I wasn't even attacking quickly and asked how I could away with that. My response: timing :).
Lautaro
Breaknose have you learned to use one properly and have you gotten very very good at it? Of course you have to train with it and maintain yourself but once you get good at it put your time where it is more valuable. I guess you didn't read the post about the three points. What you receive from the dummy is what may happen in combat, example: You do a pak sau on someone who doesn't move, what do you do then? Well if you have been training properly by the time you have to think about it you have already done it. Now, if when you pak him he just has his arm blown away then obviously he is wide open. I could go on for quite awhile about how the dummy teaches you but no one would believe a word I said because they didn't get anything from their dummy training and they will not be able to understand how it works and what it teaches you. You can't surely think that this apparatus will be the secret key. But I will tell you if you learn to use it and know what and why you will be a way better fighter. UFC fighters are in the stone age on their feet.
"So for those with a background in actual boxing I can easily say, 'of course focus mitts have their place, when done correctly.' However, say that to many JKD Instructors who don't have any practical flight time with real boxers and they will cling to that statement as a rationilization for stand up classes that are 90% focus mitt patterns, and silly 24 counts.
Thus the dilema."
Matt,
After reading Newdragons posts the validity of your stance on pad training is pretty self evident :)
I'm with you now...forget the pads and get yourself to a boxing gym sounds like pretty sage advice!
Regards,
Ryan