Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
The Closed Guard -Calhoon -Both can be good or bad for self defense. The important factor imo is to know the difference between bjj as a sport and bjj as a martial art.
Question: how much should you train total sport vs self defense? Should sport guys have a self defense game. Mainly guard Id assume?
Yes, imo sport guys should have a self defense game.
I believe the fundamentals should be taught as a martial art. It should be a requirement that a bjj practitioner must understand the valetudo game before getting a blue belt. There should be no question that any bluebelt understands how to defend himself in a real fight.
Once a basic game is developed and they understand how the guard is suppose to work, how to close the distance and get the takedown, etc, then they can add all the sport stuff they want... gi and nogi. The time spent training self defense is up to the practitioner at that point but imo at least once a week. As time goes on and you get better you will understand more and more about grappling and your self defense game needs to grow along with your skill. If you quit training in self defense all together after you get your blue you might get the false sense of security that things like your new half guard game that you use in nogi would work great against a trained fighter or maybe it does with the right timing and some adjustments here and there but you need to train self defense every so often to find out. Always have a self defense game that you can rely on imo no matter how much you enjoy training the sport.
Its been said already. Train both. Stop assuming you know what parameters a fight will take place under and try to cover as many bases as possible.
-Things to see - "I'm not training to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight"
This can be a dangerous way of thinking. Young athletic spazzy white belts are valuable training partners.
-Phillip Proctor "I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person."
lol, ive got stories
The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
Here we go again.
Some training is better than no training.
Training in both is better than training in one.
You need to know how to fight in the material for offense and defense. If you don’t know how to break a grip or use a grip you’re gonna be in trouble if someone grabs your jacket, sweatshirt, t shirt etc.
The question is pointless. If you need it you've already lost. Nowadays you just call the cops and deal with it that way.
Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
I’m not talking about advanced or gi only techniques. I’m simply talking about gripping clothing. It makes controlling someone way easier. It is not easy to just “pull out of all that”.
Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
I’m not talking about advanced or gi only techniques. I’m simply talking about gripping clothing. It makes controlling someone way easier. It is not easy to just “pull out of all that”.
Yeah but nobody is arguing that. Everyone agrees that gripping clothing is easier. Anyone can do it. That’s exactly why it’s more important to learn the skill to control someone without gripping because not only are shirts, hoodies, jackets etc. easy to pull out of, but most will tear anyway.
And I’m not arguing against no-gi. Was your referee comment sarcasm?
Grips aren’t “artificial” and most clothing will survive being grabbed.
I’d argue that learning to deal with your own clothing being grabbed is just as important.
Tshirt and gi pants would be a pretty good start. It's doesn't cover all scenarios but covers what people wear most of the time? Except in Hawaii.
Philip Proctor - And I'm not arguing against no-gi. Was your referee comment sarcasm?Grips aren’t “artificial” and most clothing will survive being grabbed.
I’d argue that learning to deal with your own clothing being grabbed is just as important.
A little sarcasm. Just like “pretend naked wrestling”.
The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
I’m not talking about advanced or gi only techniques. I’m simply talking about gripping clothing. It makes controlling someone way easier. It is not easy to just “pull out of all that”.
Yeah but nobody is arguing that. Everyone agrees that gripping clothing is easier. Anyone can do it. That’s exactly why it’s more important to learn the skill to control someone without gripping because not only are shirts, hoodies, jackets etc. easy to pull out of, but most will tear anyway.
Depending on slipping out of clothing or your clothing tearing while someone is holding you at distance with one hand and striking with the other doesn’t seem like a very good plan.
bjjlurker -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
I’m not talking about advanced or gi only techniques. I’m simply talking about gripping clothing. It makes controlling someone way easier. It is not easy to just “pull out of all that”.
Yeah but nobody is arguing that. Everyone agrees that gripping clothing is easier. Anyone can do it. That’s exactly why it’s more important to learn the skill to control someone without gripping because not only are shirts, hoodies, jackets etc. easy to pull out of, but most will tear anyway.
Depending on slipping out of clothing or your clothing tearing while someone is holding you at distance with one hand and striking with the other doesn’t seem like a very good plan.
Hoping that they never attempt to pull their arm out of their shirt and getting free or their shirt never ripping so you can stand there and punch them doesn’t seem like a very good plan either.
The Ghost Of Swayze -bjjlurker -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor -The Ghost Of Swayze -Philip Proctor - While it could happen, I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person.Pajama wrestling > pretend naked wrestling
I’ve never heard of anyone walking around in gi tops with a referee near by telling them that they’re not allowed to take it off.
Superior positioning and limb control > artificial grips
Jacket, hoodie, sweatshirt all will substitute nicely for a gi.
Limb control is way easier while grabbing clothing.
IF you know how to control without depending on gripping. You underestimate how easy it is to pull out of all of that. Gi techs are nice to add but their benefits are vastly exaggerated. Every second you waste pulling out a lapel is better spent working on a Russian 2 on 1.
I’m not talking about advanced or gi only techniques. I’m simply talking about gripping clothing. It makes controlling someone way easier. It is not easy to just “pull out of all that”.
Yeah but nobody is arguing that. Everyone agrees that gripping clothing is easier. Anyone can do it. That’s exactly why it’s more important to learn the skill to control someone without gripping because not only are shirts, hoodies, jackets etc. easy to pull out of, but most will tear anyway.
Depending on slipping out of clothing or your clothing tearing while someone is holding you at distance with one hand and striking with the other doesn’t seem like a very good plan.
Hoping that they never attempt to pull their arm out of their shirt and getting free or their shirt never ripping so you can stand there and punch them doesn’t seem like a very good plan either.
Alot of people in you encounter in self defense scenarios are going to have little to no plan in place. They’ll probably just do what they’ve done in the past.
Personally, I wouldn't depend on Gi/cloth grips offensively, but I know from training Gi that grips can be overwhelming defensivly. If you aren't prepared for them you better be taking your shirt off if you have the opportunity.
Good, now that that's settled...
Which weapon should you train to defend against, a knife or a club?
N5Z -Its been said already. Train both. Stop assuming you know what parameters a fight will take place under and try to cover as many bases as possible.
-Things to see - "I'm not training to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight"
This can be a dangerous way of thinking. Young athletic spazzy white belts are valuable training partners.
-Phillip Proctor "I've never heard of needing to defend oneself from a naked person."
lol, ive got stories
Know I agree. I am the first person to roll with big spazzy athletic guys that come in. Actually I am the first to roll with any big guy that comes in lol. I get lots of training weekly with big spazzy white belts in addition to big monstrous brown and black belts.
I was just meaning that I'm training for guys that will grab my clothes with intent, and do things that I definitely won't expect from the non skilled guys I may encounter. I'm also worried about my pants being grabbed and held onto (I've been pantsed and had my dingaling wave to the world--which can get you beat up if your focus becomes pulling your pants back up at the expense of getting your face punched). I've had long sleeve shirts NOT rip or an arm pull out or end up shirtless even though it was grabbed on tightly like them holding my shirt is going to save them from my elbow.
I have been in quite a few street fights and my experiences dealing with guys who have minimal grappling experience kind of follows the same pattern. My experience with guys who do know how to fight is what has been full of surprises, depending on how they fight.
PerformativeGayBDSM -things to see people to do -PerformativeGayBDSM -things to see people to do -True story- when I was a teenager I fought a kid at the beach in nothing but board shorts, then fought him again later that night at the movies while we both had on jeans and hoodies.
I got beat up both times but knowing how to use both would have helped me tremendously.
Actually knowing anything would have helped me tremendously.
Not sure I believe you got beat up once, let alone twice, but I'll take your word for the gi being a useful training tool.
Our conversations about this irl are the only thing that has kept me in it tbh.
Lol I got beat up way more than I ever beat anyone up.
In these threads I always get confused. Only just training nogi doesn't seem right to me. I'm in clothes everywhere I go and I always, consistently hear that wrestlers and other nogi guys struggle with the grips and being held onto when they use the gi. I'm not training to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight, so why would I not learn to be comfortable in what I wear when I'm most likely to be in a fight? Sure I don't wear a gi, but I'm always constantly cold so I wear hoodies and long sleeve shirts even here in AZ in the summer.
Idk, I think training in just one is dumb sometimes, but if that's the case why isn't anyone cross training in Judo too.
Then I think of the D1 wrestlers I've known and I see how formidable getting really good at one thing makes you-with zero submission training at all.
Then I think of what a D1 wrestler/No-Gi only guy is going to do if you grab his hoodie and it sure as fuck won't be waiting for you to get your hips inside and throw him.
But these are just things I think about, not one street fight I've ever been in went to the ground. The grand total of which is less than double digits, but that's all I've got to go on.
If I have to pick one for real life purposes I think it's got to be no gi. Just gi leaves you totally unprepared for the speed and intensity of a real life encounter, imo... which is worth nothing but that's still what it is.
Last night I rolled with a couple brown and black belts and the speed and intensity in the gi was stronger than many street fights I've been in. No holding or trying to slow down, shit I couldn't slow them down if my life depended on it.
As in my very first post, I've fought both in the same fucking day lol so I want to train both for SD. In my experience, I want to be proficient at my defense with someone hanging on me and trying to slow me down- if they have skill in holding onto clothing.
If I'm at the beach? Yeah I'll be ready from my nogi SD VT training.
things to see people to do -PerformativeGayBDSM -things to see people to do -PerformativeGayBDSM -things to see people to do -True story- when I was a teenager I fought a kid at the beach in nothing but board shorts, then fought him again later that night at the movies while we both had on jeans and hoodies.
I got beat up both times but knowing how to use both would have helped me tremendously.
Actually knowing anything would have helped me tremendously.
Not sure I believe you got beat up once, let alone twice, but I'll take your word for the gi being a useful training tool.
Our conversations about this irl are the only thing that has kept me in it tbh.
Lol I got beat up way more than I ever beat anyone up.
In these threads I always get confused. Only just training nogi doesn't seem right to me. I'm in clothes everywhere I go and I always, consistently hear that wrestlers and other nogi guys struggle with the grips and being held onto when they use the gi. I'm not training to fight someone who doesn't know how to fight, so why would I not learn to be comfortable in what I wear when I'm most likely to be in a fight? Sure I don't wear a gi, but I'm always constantly cold so I wear hoodies and long sleeve shirts even here in AZ in the summer.
Idk, I think training in just one is dumb sometimes, but if that's the case why isn't anyone cross training in Judo too.
Then I think of the D1 wrestlers I've known and I see how formidable getting really good at one thing makes you-with zero submission training at all.
Then I think of what a D1 wrestler/No-Gi only guy is going to do if you grab his hoodie and it sure as fuck won't be waiting for you to get your hips inside and throw him.
But these are just things I think about, not one street fight I've ever been in went to the ground. The grand total of which is less than double digits, but that's all I've got to go on.
If I have to pick one for real life purposes I think it's got to be no gi. Just gi leaves you totally unprepared for the speed and intensity of a real life encounter, imo... which is worth nothing but that's still what it is.
Last night I rolled with a couple brown and black belts and the speed and intensity in the gi was stronger than many street fights I've been in. No holding or trying to slow down, shit I couldn't slow them down if my life depended on it.
As in my very first post, I've fought both in the same fucking day lol so I want to train both for SD. In my experience, I want to be proficient at my defense with someone hanging on me and trying to slow me down- if they have skill in holding onto clothing.
If I'm at the beach? Yeah I'll be ready from my nogi SD VT training.
Just take off your pants, no way they fight you!
I don’t think it honestly matters, train both with punches