O.K, I know I am about to get flamed for this but: 1) I'm not trolling and 2) no, I don't think one inch punches and death touches work in MMA.
I have been practicing MT for almost a decade now; I also have a black belt in TKD which I am not going to mention any further as I believe it was 97.789% a waste of time and effort :)
Well, just about a year ago I gave up MT because all my training partners at the school I was in moved out to the Netherlands, Greece, U.S.A in search of a career (I live in Cyprus; for those who don't know it Greece does just as fine and oh Bisping was born here :)). As a result I had no one to spar with. A friend of mine recommended me some WC dojo and he said that they spar heavily 4 times a week and that I should give it a try. I did and for the most part I was impressed. Not that I was impressed at the funky stuff they do and all but their simplicity of their approach to the fight game and that the school is also open to other MA's; they also do catch wrestling and JJ there.
I won't go into too many details about WC but one thing that has struck me the most about these guys is their ability to close the distance, while minimizing damage taken. They are also very effective counter strikers against the more traditional arts (i.e. boxing and MT). If you don't trust my word fine, but I have sparred with good fighters so far and these WC guys are definitely there as well.
Now, you see people in MMA that obviously don't want to stand and strike, instead they use their striking in order to close the distance and go for the clinch. What they do (look at Randy) is use very unorthodox and ineffective "dirty boxing" tactics; hands half way down, looping punches, running in and what have you. So my question is: why would it be absurd for them to even try a new approach, as it is just plain obvious that trying to box (or even dirty box) a guy who's light-years ahead of you in the striking department is just not effective? From my experience, a good WC guy will at least have you really worried about planting your feet on the ground and start throwing wild hooks, or any hooks for that matter.
WC is about controling the center line through which your opponent's strikes come from. Now obviously, I don't think that people like Randy will all of a sudden start knocking people out by 2-inch punches and all. IMO, if they dedicated some time trying to learn how to effectively parry their way through an opponent's blind sight, rather than take the heat going in, it could have wondrous results with both their clinch and ground game... My point is simply that a person who is not a traditionally educated striker (i.e. boxing, MT and what have you) would anyway be in a huge disadvantage in trying to learn that game as a means of neutralizing a potentially much better opponent in that department. I say, even with just one year of experience in sparring with those people, that WC is an ideal method of countering traditional strikers and an excellent tool for perhaps all types of grapplers.
"I won't go into too many details about WC but one thing that has struck me the most about these guys is their ability to close the distance, while minimizing damage taken."
I was involved in wing chun...and none of my classmates could do this...we were sharing space with a boxing club...we got owned. My sifu never sparred us or any of the boxers he requested we spar with.
"If you don't trust my word fine, but I have sparred with good fighters so far and these WC guys are definitely there as well."
I have seen wing chun guys in San Shou tourneys in Baltimore...and the results were the same...KO for the better striker or they couldn't go 2 rounds before quiting. The chain punching were basically ignored and they were getting right cross and hook to death.
"I say, even with just one year of experience in sparring with those people, that WC is an ideal method of countering traditional strikers and an excellent tool for perhaps all types of grapplers."
I have never seen a wing chun fighter deal effectively against a grappler or striker in any MMA match or striker oriented only tournaments. I have attempted to look it up on YOUTUBE and other sites...and still have never seen a match...only DEMONSTRATION where the instructor would beat up his own students.
I trained Wing Chun for over 10 years and it does have its applications along with huge shortcomings. IMO they include inadequate leg kick defense, head movement, bodymovement not to mention take down defense. Basicaly squaring up against someone who knows the strategy you are trying to employ makes you a huge target.
In Wing Chuns defense there are some trapping and elbow and generating power in close range using your hip techniques that are fundamentaly usefull.
When your sifu call this light sparring...u better look for another school asap...notice Grandmaster William Cheung ability to make the boxer telegraph...use the same moves so he can counter...manipulating his student/I mean opponent to never throw a right cross and constantly dance to the right!
Heman, I did not say that WC alone can beat any of the arts you mentioned; I said it can create problems. The place I spar at has a good reputation around and basically all the guys who want to learn the fight game (but just don't want MT), they go there so you get some good athletes. There is about 40 guys there. I can easily man handle 35 of them, however, there is these 5 guys that can take me out literally in seconds. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it either. I too thought that WC is completely useless. Heck, I still think it is useless by itself; even though I get my ass handed to me by 5 people, it doesn't mean that I am total devotee all of a sudden. However, when you put a really good athlete to really learn those basic techniques he can certainly make something out of it and they proved it to me.
Again granted, in a real MMA fight WC gets beat by traditional strikers/fighters and I am not saying otherwise. What I am saying is that grapplers would benefit more in learnig WC rather than anything else for their stand up game.
Now as for the chain punching, duh, it certainly isn't of any use other than probably picking up some hand speed. As for MMA tourneys, however, I too have never seen any WC guy do even decently but then again I have never seen any decent WC guy competing.
"What I am saying is that grapplers would benefit more in learnig WC rather than anything else for their stand up game."
I disagree. A grappler can benefit from learning boxing and muy thai techs more so than wing chun. Rashad has shown what a boxing/wrestler combination looks like. Wrestlers put most of their weight on their front leg...so do boxers...wing chun prefer either the cat stance or 50/50 distribution in their stance.
Also wing chun striking is hideous...asking a wrestler to throw a front kick or a side kick and to chain punch wouldn't do any good. Wrestlers are use to going all out...not counter fighting...wrestlers are pit bulls...there standup should either be a quick set up...JAB JAB...then go for the takedown or if they are good JAB JAB...clinch and strike. Why make it complicated for them?
Muy thai plum tech. is more effective than any wing chun trapping for grapplers. Since the plum/clinch is a grab techique...we have seen wrestlers like Mark Kerr and Coleman use it effectively. Asking a grappler to lop, pak or jut sao would retard his game.
Even in head gear I got knocked or taken down plenty of times. Their ground game (since they have also been doing JJ and I haven't) is also better so there you go. If it were a real MMA fight, I would have been KO'ed, TKO'ed or submitted.
That's the problem...I haven't seen any good examples of wing chun sparring...on YOUTUBE or any other site...all I see are sifus beating up their students...chi sao drills or NO CONTACT drills. Nothing is ALIVE.
The only ones that have any descent footages are the WING TSUN group that have adopted MMA fighting.
"Didn't Belfort use the straight blast with a lot of success in his early matches?"
The straight blast based on JKD argument is chain punching straight down the centerline...Vitor threw a cross...hook...cross...hook...cross...hook...however the hook can be subsituted with a straight punch. The SBG guys call it the VITOR BLAST. U see the same approach in a slap fight between bitches where a girl will get the upperhand cause she's hitting the other girl more times causing her to turn her head and body away from the strike.
"Also wing chun striking is hideous...asking a wrestler to throw a front kick or a side kick and to chain punch wouldn't do any good. Wrestlers are use to going all out...not counter fighting...wrestlers are pit bulls...there standup should either be a quick set up...JAB JAB...then go for the takedown or if they are good JAB JAB...clinch and strike. Why make it complicated for them?"
I can definitely see where you are coming from. However, I am not saying that you ask of them to throw those front kicks, which are hideous and I agree with you. What I am suggesting is that they learn to isolate elbows coming in, parrying hooks and manipulate jabs so that they can close the distance safer for the clinch. Granted, some wrestlers just prefer to stand and jab and shoot from the distance. Although, I fundamentaly disagree with that approach, fine.
There are, however, people that would settle to close the gap, clinch and work their way for the take down from there. Against mediocre strikers they can perhaps do just fine with their basic traditional striking. Put them though against a good striker and if that striker knows some wrestling it almost looks impossible to close the distance and we have witnessed this time and time again. That is what motivates me to believe that trying to fight fire with fire just ain't gonna work there.
"What I am suggesting is that they learn to isolate elbows coming in, parrying hooks and manipulate jabs so that they can close the distance safer for the clinch."
That's why you see grapplers training in boxing. They get boxing coaches...they get boxing sparring partners. A wing chun guy is not going to know how to throw a proper hook or jab combination like a boxer. A wing chun guy will not be able to defend a hook/uppercut/jab in comparison to a boxer. A boxer constantly trains with it and defend against it...they are the authority on offense and defense against boxing techs.
A wing chun guy can defend against a chain punch better than a boxer cause they see it all the time.
For grapplers to train against a striker...u put him in the ring with a striker...u get him to be coached by a striker...so if he's going up against a left handed boxer...u find him left handed boxers to spar with...and a coach that knows how to pick apart those type of guys.
Your theory is basically to get the grappler to learn some unorthodox style to throw the striker out of his game.
"Muy thai plum tech. is more effective than any wing chun trapping for grapplers. Since the plum/clinch is a grab techique...we have seen wrestlers like Mark Kerr and Coleman use it effectively. Asking a grappler to lop, pak or jut sao would retard his game."
The plum is a good technique no doubt. But even that has to be set up and again you have to close the distance to land it. I don't recall Randy or Ortiz coming close to land it against Chuck, or Coleman against any good striker. At least not without going through hell, and my point is unecessary hell, before getting it.
"A wing chun guy will not be able to defend a hook/uppercut/jab in comparison to a boxer. A boxer constantly trains with it and defend against it...they are the authority on offense and defense against boxing techs."
Hmmm, that is where I'd have to disagree. WC, in my humble opinion and experience, does provide another approach at countering those strikes. I'd think that with enough sparring experience, you can adapt your WC against boxing. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it would alone help you in beating it but I'd say that it would provide you an alternative approach in setting up your real game.
"For grapplers to train against a striker...u put him in the ring with a striker...u get him to be coached by a striker...so if he's going up against a left handed boxer...u find him left handed boxers to spar with...and a coach that knows how to pick apart those type of guys."
OK, couldn't the same thing happen if you found the grappler a really good and open minded WC instructor and boxing sparring partners?
"Your theory is basically to get the grappler to learn some unorthodox style to throw the striker out of his game."
Victor the sifu where I train at is also a William Cheung red belt. However, I have to say that when it comes to striking he is very TWC. I am certainly more with you one that one, although I wouldn't say that straight to his face :)
While I think Grecco would be great for Wc students in that the trapping can lead to underhooks and grecco style throws, I don't think it works the other way and I can't see it working in MMA
The problem is the whole Pak Sau type of striking or counter striking is good up to certain level of attack.
Good strikers - professional fighters, move in and out too quickly and cut angles too much to apply good trapping.
Same thing with wrestlers, mediocre take downs on the street is one thing, but trying to anti-grapple an elite leverl grappler, who shoots in explosivley and again they pass through the trapping range too quickly
So while WC is ok for self defense against 90% of the average shmoos you would meet in a street confrontationi, the application to MMA is very small.
