After reading all the hate on Frank I have to wonder if most of you have watched any of his fights other then Cesar Gracie? Did you see his war with Enson? His destruction of Tito?
Frank was one of the best in two different weight classes. He never stopped training and his philosophy on body mechanics and wasted movement are good.
I am a huge Renzo Gracie fan but in truth from "bad" position Frank did significantly more damage. Renzo doesnt seem like the type of person who would fake an injury or make an excuse. He has loss before etc.
I think the reason he was so jacked had more to do with having damaged ribs then from the knees to the head. I could be wrong but he ate a lot of knees to the ribs and I would be interested to see if he had a bruised or fractured rib. It could explain why he was coughing and having trouble breathing.
I agree after the 1st round alone Frank lands 5 solid leg kicks and close to 23 knee's to the liver and ribs.
Renzo did nothing but control which doesnt mean alot if you dont do anything with it
Wohoo some one who agrees
"Renzo did nothing but control which doesnt mean alot if you dont do anything with it"
Obviously someone who has never been on the receiving end of the dreaded sidemount to north-south to sidemount transition.
Yeah I am sure Frank was thinking about tapping to the crazy amount of pressure that could only be applied by a Gracie.. Damn I hate it when people the same weight of me transition on top.
Yup, and even with Mount vs Enson his defense was solid.
Frank's ability to fight from a bad position is similar to Loueso (sp) ability of giving up his back and getting out
I don't think it was from the rib shots. I think it was from the two hard knees to the back of his neck, after punching Renzo in the back of the neck in the first round and receiving a warning.
"Damn I hate it when people the same weight of me transition on top."
What did Renzo do with the postion nothing he just sat there he should of thrown punches elbows something you know what i mean.With the 15 sec clock he should moved faster.
Renzo had Lay'n'Pray as a gameplan apparently. He didn't do anything to Frank other than a couple of nice takedowns. Frank had a really nice shot on his chin and it made up for those alone. Not to mention some sweet leg kicks and a bajillion knees to the ribs.
Meh so he might not have distroyed Tito, the only thing I remember was him hammer fisting Tito who was grabbing his ankles
Look - it's not about the pressure from top, it's about setting up submission attempts, which Renzo was doing. Setting up a submission takes a bit of time - but I suppose this is too difficult a concept for TUF noobs who believe mma should look like WWF or something.
FACT - Renzo has never quit.
FACT - Renzo has always stepped up - how about we compare Renzo's last two opponents to Franks last two opponents? (Renzo - BJ Penn, Pat Miletech... Frank - Elvis Sinosic and Cesar (mma record of 0-0-0) Gracie)
FACT - Frank has been talking smack and BS without backing it up for 7+ years now.
FACT - Frank was INTENTIONALLY kneeing him to the back of the head hard even after the warning. The gif floating around here attests to this - its black and white. You don't do that unless you're a cheating bastard who wants out.
FACT - People who's main focus and strength are submissions don't always go for the GnP. This means that many of their fights end up with the opponent "looking" OK. The only reason the opponent looks OK however is because they are stopped prior to breaking an opponents limb.
So pretty please - the only behavior that was questionable in this entire event is from the guy who's behavior has been questionable FOR THE LAST 7+ YEARS.
if you guys think those knees to the ribs did anything you are dreaming- they didn't do enough for renzo to even TRY AND DEFEND THEM. robert bentley is 100% correct, and renzo schooled frank. lol @ 'i was waiting for him to tire out'- if a bjj guy said that you'd all flip out.
"LOL! Come on man, I haven't watched that fight forever but I distinctly remember Tito putting some serious abuse on Frank until he gassed. That fight created a monster Tito who improved his cardio, and not much else."
You may want to rewatch the fight then. Frank abused Tito in several standing exchanges and there is a reason Tito mysteriously "gassed" it had alot to do with struggling like hell to keep Frank on his back and a flurry followed by a choke that nearly put Tito out. Tito did some damage, but a MUCH smaller Shamrock pressured the hell out of him and made him make mistakes. Tito Gassed because he had to fight at Frank's pace. I like the way people seem to think that just lying on your back and holding a man in guard will magically make him "gas". Tito wore out because he was afraid of Frank getting up, which he tried to do non stop in that fight, because Frank would whoop Tito's ass every time they stood up for more than 3 seconds.
I was always a fan of Frank's style and pace. I thought Renzo was a bit too conservative on the mat against Frank. I also think it was a serious punk move by Frank to down Renzo saying he didnt want to fight after Frank throws shots he KNEW were illegal. Never been a fan of Frank's personality.
If it was a BJJ match, Renzo would have been winning but it wasn't. He dominated position, yes, but he didn't do any damage or come close to getting any submissions.
The second time he passed Frank's guard it looked like Frank let him do it so that he could throw better knees.
"but he didn't do any damage or come close to getting any submissions."
You may want to rewatch the fight then, because Renzo was close with the same armlock he tapped smith with. I actually thought he was setting Frank up to attack the other arm, knowing Frank would have to roll towards the arm to get out, but again Renzo was a bit conservative.
Great points robert bentley. I am a huge fan, and former student of Renzo's and a fan of Frank's back in the day. I thought this was going to be a bad fight for Renzo, I'm glad I was wrong. Renzo dominated and was isolating an arm when Herb "early stop" Dean stood them up. Renzo could of mounted at will but chose to work from side control. He showed big time flaws in Franks game. I was thinking Baroni was in trouble but now I'm not so sure. Oh yeah, and Frank's after fight retoric was just pittiful. He should be ashamed and embarassed.
Renzo would eventually tap a clueless Shamrock if wasn't for the illegal blows