OnlyTheStrongSurvive - Having trouble conducting a rational and calm discussion with Lazer?
I'm shocked.
It's amazing!? I don't even know what we are arguing. We both think Shogun will win. 
Standup29 -Lazer MMA -
I do not understand the first sentence. YOU started the math by saying Sonnen was as good as Coleman. I pointed out that was conjecture at best and I did not agree.
I proved that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up (just more conjecture by you Standup).Im not even sure what to say. Comparing Coleman to Chael is math in what way? Did I compare similar opponents to prove who was better? I simply stated what everyone knows, Coleman was no where near his best when he fought Shogun. Is that mmath in your head? How? Why?
I still am confused at why you are even arguing with me. This isn't a debate. We both think Shogun should win so are you bothered I believe there are plenty of variables that could lead to Chael winning? Is it that I think Chael has good enough wrestling to potentially control Shogun? Was it I said it is possible for Chael to submit Shogun late in the fight if he is gassed (it has happened before)? What exactly is your problem? I honestly don't get it.
You are comparing abilities of fighters from different classes as though you can prove any point by doing this which is a fail, so it's failed MMA math in a way IMO (i.e. you are saying the Coleman that fought Shogun in the second fight could not hold down Shogun a good as the Sonnen of today would have been able to, & because of Sonnen being able to control Nate & Okami, this somehow has an implication in this fight).
I just point out the speculation involved in these types of assumptions and the ONLY FACT here (VS speculation) is "that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters @ MW (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up. Therefore, you are grasping at straws to try to make an argument that there is a reasonable case (at least in your examples) to be made that Sonnen can LNP Shogun with success. This is my final post on this.
Thanks and have a great day
Lazer MMA -Standup29 -Lazer MMA -
I do not understand the first sentence. YOU started the math by saying Sonnen was as good as Coleman. I pointed out that was conjecture at best and I did not agree.
I proved that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up (just more conjecture by you Standup).Im not even sure what to say. Comparing Coleman to Chael is math in what way? Did I compare similar opponents to prove who was better? I simply stated what everyone knows, Coleman was no where near his best when he fought Shogun. Is that mmath in your head? How? Why?
I still am confused at why you are even arguing with me. This isn't a debate. We both think Shogun should win so are you bothered I believe there are plenty of variables that could lead to Chael winning? Is it that I think Chael has good enough wrestling to potentially control Shogun? Was it I said it is possible for Chael to submit Shogun late in the fight if he is gassed (it has happened before)? What exactly is your problem? I honestly don't get it.
You are comparing abilities of fighters from different classes as though you can prove any point by doing this which is a fail, so it's failed MMA math in a way IMO (i.e. you are saying the Coleman that fought Shogun in the second fight could not hold down Shogun a good as the Sonnen of today would have been able to, & because of Sonnen being able to control Nate & Okami, this somehow has an implication in this fight).
I just point out the speculation involved in these types of assumptions and the ONLY FACT here (VS speculation) is "that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters @ MW (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up. Therefore, you are grasping at straws to try to make an argument that there is a reasonable case (at least in your examples) to be made that Sonnen can LNP Shogun with success. This is my final post on this.
Thanks and have a great day
Ok bud. Whatever you say. Comparing abilities is not mmamath and based on your logic, nothing you said is provable. Shogun and Chael will fight and by all accounts Shogun should win but you will look pretty dumb if Chael puts up any kind of fight or if Shogun can't sweep him. Heaven forbid Chael even manages to win. I'm sure you will have a good excuse ready just in case.
Good luck to you too and have a great day. I personally am going to sleep so maybe have a good night would have been nicer.
Standup29 -Lazer MMA -Standup29 -Lazer MMA -
I do not understand the first sentence. YOU started the math by saying Sonnen was as good as Coleman. I pointed out that was conjecture at best and I did not agree.
I proved that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up (just more conjecture by you Standup).Im not even sure what to say. Comparing Coleman to Chael is math in what way? Did I compare similar opponents to prove who was better? I simply stated what everyone knows, Coleman was no where near his best when he fought Shogun. Is that mmath in your head? How? Why?
I still am confused at why you are even arguing with me. This isn't a debate. We both think Shogun should win so are you bothered I believe there are plenty of variables that could lead to Chael winning? Is it that I think Chael has good enough wrestling to potentially control Shogun? Was it I said it is possible for Chael to submit Shogun late in the fight if he is gassed (it has happened before)? What exactly is your problem? I honestly don't get it.
You are comparing abilities of fighters from different classes as though you can prove any point by doing this which is a fail, so it's failed MMA math in a way IMO (i.e. you are saying the Coleman that fought Shogun in the second fight could not hold down Shogun a good as the Sonnen of today would have been able to, & because of Sonnen being able to control Nate & Okami, this somehow has an implication in this fight).
I just point out the speculation involved in these types of assumptions and the ONLY FACT here (VS speculation) is "that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters @ MW (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up. Therefore, you are grasping at straws to try to make an argument that there is a reasonable case (at least in your examples) to be made that Sonnen can LNP Shogun with success. This is my final post on this.
Thanks and have a great dayOk bud. Whatever you say. Comparing abilities is not mmamath and based on your logic, nothing you said is provable. Shogun and Chael will fight and by all accounts Shogun should win but you will look pretty dumb if Chael puts up any kind of fight or if Shogun can't sweep him. Heaven forbid Chael even manages to win. I'm sure you will have a good excuse ready just in case.
Good luck to you too and have a great day. I personally am going to sleep so maybe have a good night would have been nicer.
I also never said anything about LNP or Chael of today coukd have controlled him better then. I said Coleman was not as good as he used to be and I believe Chael is better at controlling fighters on the ground than Coleman at the time. Didn't say he would be able to do it better because it is irrelevant. The Shogun of today is not as good as the Shogun who fought in Pride. Not even you would argue that. The only fighter Shogun has beat in the UFC at the time they fought who was better than Okami or Marquardt (at time of fights) was Machida. Not Vera, not Chuck, Not Coleman, and certainly not Forrest. Great fighters but not top ranked, most on the decline and never challenged for a title after they fought. Just facts. Okami would go on to fight for a title and Marquardt would go on to win a decent (granted not a UFC title) title in SF (yes I know WW). Does that make them better wins? To some maybe but it doesn't change the fact Shogun is not the same fighter when he swept better fighters than Chael.
Ok now I'm really going to sleep.
GSPsShadyHandWraps - "Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought"
yeah but he was still a lot bigger and stronger than Chael is at 205. And its not like he is the only wrestler Shogun has fought. He leglocked Randleman, he had Hendo in a leglock that he used to get back to his feet (and took down Hendo) he used deep half guard to scramble to his feet against Jones despite being on queer street from the G&P, he used the same deep half setup against Machida who is a fairly good wrestler and has excellent BJJ
And he got takedowns on Arona, Liddell and Coleman. Im not sure why people think Shogun is unproven against wrestlers or why Chael is now suddenly a 205 version of Benson Henderson when he has been submitted more times than any other main card fighter in the UFC. How is Chael better than Randleman? Definately not as explosive or strong and he gets caught in subs on the regular just like Kevin did
The only questionmark is Shoguns questionable cardio. Chael atleast at 185 showed excellent conditioning.
I agree that Coleman was a lot bigger and probably stronger. I don't think Shogun is unproven against wrestlers at all. Chael is a great MMA wrestler and I have no doubt if he shoots he will eventually get the td (this is of course if he doesn't get blasted before or during his shot). What happens from there is up in the air. Chael is great at top control but also is susceptible to getting subbed. We will just have to see how Shogun looks and if Chael is better acclimated to LHW.
Going to be a great fight!
I think I'm sleep posting..... ;)
Oops!
oh, so this is how.