sekundarburnes - who does chael ever get swept by? anderson, once, in the middle of a 23 minute beatdown on the ground, after which he was immediately reversed, leading joe rogan to say "that's wrestling baby!" shogun's great and all but if expectations of his victory in this fight rest on his ability to sweep chael and/or stuff his takedowns, there are gonna be some disappointed shogunites around this forum in a few weeks.
Anderson didn't actually sweep him, he stuffed a takedown after he hurt him and Chael fell into guard. 
rnunz -
I hate this thread. But I am glad to see dudefromisrael back on the boards. Post some vids!
Wow, thanks dude. My life's so busy right now, I don't really get to many good vids.
But will keep an eye out and cheers
Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
"Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought"
yeah but he was still a lot bigger and stronger than Chael is at 205. And its not like he is the only wrestler Shogun has fought. He leglocked Randleman, he had Hendo in a leglock that he used to get back to his feet (and took down Hendo) he used deep half guard to scramble to his feet against Jones despite being on queer street from the G&P, he used the same deep half setup against Machida who is a fairly good wrestler and has excellent BJJ
And he got takedowns on Arona, Liddell and Coleman. Im not sure why people think Shogun is unproven against wrestlers or why Chael is now suddenly a 205 version of Benson Henderson when he has been submitted more times than any other main card fighter in the UFC. How is Chael better than Randleman? Definately not as explosive or strong and he gets caught in subs on the regular just like Kevin did
The only questionmark is Shoguns questionable cardio. Chael atleast at 185 showed excellent conditioning.
Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
Coleman was a world class fighter and champion, and Arona was not that far behind him, he was a fuckin beast. Laugh all you want! This VS a fighter that in his life EVER beat who? Paulo? So yea there is no proof of your comments (BTW I never said Coleman was his best at that point, just that he'd be better than Sonnen @ that 1 thing IMO). What is provable is that Shogun swept far better fighters per his resume without exception.
It is Sonnen who has been subbed a number of times FFS and by FAR by lesser opponents as well. There is no escape from all these facts (no spec like your argument is solely based).
BTW I'm NO fan of Shogun but it is what it is. Shogun had a very long layoff coming into the fight you spoke of and had a bad camp due to lingering injuries, facts actually that were proven out to me when I was the skeptic myself. So I would not try to prove much by using that fight as an FYI.
It is Sonnen who will take the damage from a superior fighter and it is he who will be gassed as a result. This fight will end via stoppage, Shogun will finish via KO or sub.
Lazer MMA - Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
Coleman was a world class fighter and champion, and Arona was not that far behind him, he was a fuckin beast. Laugh all you want! This VS a fighter that in his life EVER beat who? Paulo? So yea there is no proof of your comments (BTW I never said Coleman was his best at that point, just that he'd be better than Sonnen @ that 1 thing IMO). What is provable is that Shogun swept far better fighters per his resume without exception.
It is Sonnen who has been subbed a number of times FFS and by FAR by lesser opponents as well. There is no escape from all these facts (no spec like your argument is solely based).
BTW I'm NO fan of Shogun but it is what it is. Shogun had a very long layoff coming into the fight you spoke of and had a bad camp due to lingering injuries, facts actually that were proven out to me when I was the skeptic myself. So I would not try to prove much by using that fight as an FYI.
It is Sonnen who will take the damage from a superior fighter and it is he who will be gassed as a result. This fight will end via stoppage, Shogun will finish via KO or sub.
I never laughed and I disagree Coleman at the time of his fight with Shogun was better at controlling position on the ground. Arona was a beast sure but I also don't believe he is better than Chael at maintaining position. No problem you disagree just not sure why it seems to bother you that I do.
Lazer MMA - Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
Coleman was a world class fighter and champion, and Arona was not that far behind him, he was a fuckin beast. Laugh all you want! This VS a fighter that in his life EVER beat who? Paulo? So yea there is no proof of your comments (BTW I never said Coleman was his best at that point, just that he'd be better than Sonnen @ that 1 thing IMO). What is provable is that Shogun swept far better fighters per his resume without exception.
It is Sonnen who has been subbed a number of times FFS and by FAR by lesser opponents as well. There is no escape from all these facts (no spec like your argument is solely based).
BTW I'm NO fan of Shogun but it is what it is. Shogun had a very long layoff coming into the fight you spoke of and had a bad camp due to lingering injuries, facts actually that were proven out to me when I was the skeptic myself. So I would not try to prove much by using that fight as an FYI.
It is Sonnen who will take the damage from a superior fighter and it is he who will be gassed as a result. This fight will end via stoppage, Shogun will finish via KO or sub.
Chael has beaten fighters known for their control and strong offense. Easy examples would be Okami and Nate Marquardt (sp). Both of whome fought for a title.
I also said I believe Shogun will win but find it odd anyone would write Chael off because he has lost to only the best in the past few years. Especially when Shogun is known for having cardio issues (especially because he is prone to injuires) and that would play right into Chaels smothering style of fighting.
It's a fairly even fight that favors Shogun but it only favors an injury free Shogun who won't gas early in the fight.
Yall are funny. Attaching yourself emotionally to a betting line is silly. It doesn't mean your guy has a better or worse chance: it just means that's the direction the money is going. And if you do play the game, putting money on an event when you are already clouded is probably not fiscally prudent.
Betting odds have nothing to do with whom the bookie thinks will win, they have to do with who they think people are more likely to bet on. Chael has much more visibly public persona and there are likely to be more bets on him than Shogun.
Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
Coleman was a world class fighter and champion, and Arona was not that far behind him, he was a fuckin beast. Laugh all you want! This VS a fighter that in his life EVER beat who? Paulo? So yea there is no proof of your comments (BTW I never said Coleman was his best at that point, just that he'd be better than Sonnen @ that 1 thing IMO). What is provable is that Shogun swept far better fighters per his resume without exception.
It is Sonnen who has been subbed a number of times FFS and by FAR by lesser opponents as well. There is no escape from all these facts (no spec like your argument is solely based).
BTW I'm NO fan of Shogun but it is what it is. Shogun had a very long layoff coming into the fight you spoke of and had a bad camp due to lingering injuries, facts actually that were proven out to me when I was the skeptic myself. So I would not try to prove much by using that fight as an FYI.
It is Sonnen who will take the damage from a superior fighter and it is he who will be gassed as a result. This fight will end via stoppage, Shogun will finish via KO or sub.
Chael has beaten fighters known for their control and strong offense. Easy examples would be Okami and Nate Marquardt (sp). Both of whome fought for a title.
I also said I believe Shogun will win but find it odd anyone would write Chael off because he has lost to only the best in the past few years. Especially when Shogun is known for having cardio issues (especially because he is prone to injuires) and that would play right into Chaels smothering style of fighting.
It's a fairly even fight that favors Shogun but it only favors an injury free Shogun who won't gas early in the fight.
looks good but look deeper. After getting tooled by Babalu Sonnen abandoned LHW.
"Okami beat Belcher (who beat who?) & Munoz (who beat Maia & Boetsch [who himself beat Okami}
Nate the great (beat Miller & Maia - Do you want to add Lister & Paul Harris LOL)"
So WTF are we really talking about here when you reference these fighters?
An inferior division to LHW which Sonnen left and cut weight to fight against. In no way is this close to even, it's the majors Vs the minors. It's a damn multiple grade 1 winner Vs a horse that never won a damn stakes race and is looking for his biggest win ever.
Sonnen is getting stopped by Sub or KO, it's that simple. Shogun has swept and beaten better fighters, & Sonnen has lost and been subbed many times by lesser fighters.
MMAMAZ - Nicknitro - Cause Shogun is nowhere near the fighter he once was..
Sad but...this 
Logically this is what the bettors must believe @ this point without exception.
Naa js, I did not even mention those MW fighters. MW historically is just plain weak and this is proven by listing the best wins of even the best MW's ever @ MW VS doing the same vs fighters from other divisions. The poster introduced the topic of these lesser fighters and I just showed the argument was not a good one.
Lazer MMA - Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 - Lazer MMA - Standup29 -
Coleman was not the wrestker he used to be when they fought. Arona is great on the ground but I'm not sure he is as good as chael with keeping position.
There is a difference in cardio and heart. I doubt anyone can match Shogun in the having heart department but his cardio is always a question mark.
Chael has unproven cardio at LHW and he has admittedly said he finds ways out of fights but there is no denying he will go full throttle till he can't and that may take all the tools Shogun can win with. A gassed Shogun has been submitted before so let's not pretend Chael can't catch him in a choke later in the fight.
Close line and I'm pumped for the fight. Leaning on Shogun but Chael could just as easily win.
I would guess Coleman when Shogun fought him, was better than Sonnen was on the very best day of his life in terms of being to hold down a guy. Arona too IMO BTW. Proven great fighters VS a guy that beat who, exactly ever in his life even? I hardly felt it was necessary to answer this it's so speculative and poor an argument.
LMFAO @ Sonnen subbing Shogun period. It will be Sonnen beaten to a pulp with no good wins in the division ever even that will be gassed and subbed if he is not KTFO prior.
Coleman was not anywhere near his best when he fought Shogun. Its ok if you think he on that day was better than Chael ever was, I disagree but that was obvious. Same for Arona. I think Chael can keep position better and has a more taxing style.
And any gassed fighter can be submitted. So laugh if you want but Forrest subbed Shogun while gassed, don't for a second think it isn't possible again. I think Shogun will win but wouldn't at all be surprised if Chael wins by either UD or late submission.
Coleman was a world class fighter and champion, and Arona was not that far behind him, he was a fuckin beast. Laugh all you want! This VS a fighter that in his life EVER beat who? Paulo? So yea there is no proof of your comments (BTW I never said Coleman was his best at that point, just that he'd be better than Sonnen @ that 1 thing IMO). What is provable is that Shogun swept far better fighters per his resume without exception.
It is Sonnen who has been subbed a number of times FFS and by FAR by lesser opponents as well. There is no escape from all these facts (no spec like your argument is solely based).
BTW I'm NO fan of Shogun but it is what it is. Shogun had a very long layoff coming into the fight you spoke of and had a bad camp due to lingering injuries, facts actually that were proven out to me when I was the skeptic myself. So I would not try to prove much by using that fight as an FYI.
It is Sonnen who will take the damage from a superior fighter and it is he who will be gassed as a result. This fight will end via stoppage, Shogun will finish via KO or sub.
Chael has beaten fighters known for their control and strong offense. Easy examples would be Okami and Nate Marquardt (sp). Both of whome fought for a title.
I also said I believe Shogun will win but find it odd anyone would write Chael off because he has lost to only the best in the past few years. Especially when Shogun is known for having cardio issues (especially because he is prone to injuires) and that would play right into Chaels smothering style of fighting.
It's a fairly even fight that favors Shogun but it only favors an injury free Shogun who won't gas early in the fight.
looks good but look deeper. After getting tooled by Babalu Sonnen abandoned LHW.
"Okami beat Belcher (who beat who?) & Munoz (who beat Maia & Boetsch [who himself beat Okami}
Nate the great (beat Miller & Maia - Do you want to add Lister & Paul Harris LOL)"
So WTF are we really talking about here when you reference these fighters?
An inferior division to LHW which Sonnen left and cut weight to fight against. In no way is this close to even, it's the majors Vs the minors. It's a damn multiple grade 1 winner Vs a horse that never won a damn stakes race and is looking for his biggest win ever.
Sonnen is getting stopped by Sub or KO, it's that simple. Shogun has swept and beaten better fighters, & Sonnen has lost and been subbed many times by lesser fighters.
Wow are you resorting to mmath after comparing a win and sweep of Coleman? Don't be silly. I named opponents that backed my statement of Chael has faced very good grapplers and fighters known for heavy offense.
I ask you, what are we even talking about? We both seem to think Shogun is going to win so what exactly is your issue here? Are you just bored or something?
I do not understand the first sentence. YOU started the math by saying Sonnen was as good as Coleman. I pointed out that was conjecture at best and I did not agree.
I proved that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up (just more conjecture by you Standup).
Having trouble conducting a rational and calm discussion with Lazer?
I'm shocked.
Lazer MMA -
I do not understand the first sentence. YOU started the math by saying Sonnen was as good as Coleman. I pointed out that was conjecture at best and I did not agree.
I proved that Shogun swept and beat better fighters @ LHW (PRIDe MW) and Sonnen fought inferior fighters (again that you brought them up up not me- the MW's) in an inferior division and it proves nothing in this match up (just more conjecture by you Standup).
Im not even sure what to say. Comparing Coleman to Chael is math in what way? Did I compare similar opponents to prove who was better? I simply stated what everyone knows, Coleman was no where near his best when he fought Shogun. Is that mmath in your head? How? Why?
I still am confused at why you are even arguing with me. This isn't a debate. We both think Shogun should win so are you bothered I believe there are plenty of variables that could lead to Chael winning? Is it that I think Chael has good enough wrestling to potentially control Shogun? Was it I said it is possible for Chael to submit Shogun late in the fight if he is gassed (it has happened before)? What exactly is your problem? I honestly don't get it.