Anyone know if there's a Greco school in the seattle area?
BreakUnose, no, you don't need pressure to be functional in the clinch. I never ment to say anything like your way is no good and my way is better, your way is great and works just fine. I'm just trying to share another way of doing it.
mikham777, i wish i had some on video. I will soon tho, but then i need the equipment to transfer it to computer. I have been planning on putting some up but looks like it will take a few months.
kenwingjitsu, True i'm not 100% sure what you guys mean by the SBG version of aliveness, its more then just against a resisting partner/opponent? You talk about taking the tools out and applying them to a range. The two main drills i used to get good at this stuff was to either have my partner wear boxing gloves and box me, or try to take me down. I would defend using the chi sao stuff and instead of attacking back i would push/run them backwards in place of the blast. Is this what you mean by "Take the tools out, & add them to a range. Train the tools & the range alive."?
So greco uses the same pressure huh? Thats cool! I'm going to have to take some classes, I would love to get a new angle on this stuff :)
As for the forms, thats a can of worms i think i'll pass on opening. No chance of explaining that one with words, i would have to show you things on a one on one basis.
"I have had grapplers stop me many times, most of the time because they were pummeling. "Yes, Greco uses the same kind of pressure with a different goal; to clinch you. Sounds like you've experienced a successful clincher or two.The two main drills i used to get good at this stuff was to either have my partner wear boxing gloves and box me, or try to take me down. I would defend using the chi sao stuff and instead of attacking back i would push/run them backwards in place of the blast. Is this what you mean by "Take the tools out, & add them to a range. Train the tools & the range alive."?Not quite. Although what you did is not a bad way to learn to defend takedowns, it isn't really chi-sao. You're applying (application :-) a principle of chi-sao; The principle of constant fwd pressure. This isn't what I mean by alive isolation though. Rather than try to explain what it is, I'll give you an example. If you were to re- structure your training, you'd take a range, take the tools that are effective in that range, learn them (drill), then try to use them in that range against an opponent who isn't resisting at first. Then he starts to resist. He increases resistance. If you can still "pull it off", then by the time he's fully resisting & you're 'making it work', youre training alive....but only with ONE tool. Add another tool. So now you're trying to do 2 things. Train it isolated first, then increase resistance. Then add it to that range. As you add it, one person does it, the other "defends". As you add resistance, you both try to "do" to each other, & both defend. Keep adding tools in this manner, till you're eventually adding all the tools you could use at that range. An example would be say...oh I dunno......the clinch. Start with pummeling. Then pummel to underhooks. Then add resistance. Then isolate elbows, train progressively, then full resistance, and add it to the clinch. So now you're trying to get underhook OR an elbow shot, while your partner resists & tries to do the same to you. Then do the same with takedowns. Back to the clinch...now your BOTH trying to Underhook, or elbow, or take down each other. Then add other tools. This is how you can add a 'tool' from chi-sao. Example the lop-sao. Try to get 1 underhook, while the other controls his other arm. You could control with either the hand on the bicep or on the wrist in the Greco tie up. Now if you hold the wrist, you can use the lop sao to jerk him off balance by pulling the wrist. As you jerk him, you let go & punch the face with the same hand. VOILA! you've just found a real "application" for lop sao. Add to the clinch. So now you've got Underhook, elbows, takedowns, lop-punch. Take another "tool". Pak, ton, knees, whatever. Find out the "real" applications. When you do, figure out which range it can work in. Isolate it, Integrate it, then spar it. You'll be pulling off these "isolated bits" of chi-sao in the clinch, at long (kick/punch) range , unattached clinch etc etc. Do the same with all the tools you want to use in your game. Knees, spin kicks, high kicks, headbutts, jut-sao-punch, oblique kicks....etc etc. On & on till the break of dawn. There's more, but I hope you get the gist.KenTiredFingersWingJitsu
You can't actually believe this?....
"bruce did the sil lum tao on a daily basis, i have been told this structure is one of the major things that gave him his super strength, speed, power."
. . . .do you really believe that?
In what universe, and under what principle of physics would a dead pattern, solo form develop "super strength, speed and power?" Please explain that because I am sure their are a lot of Athletic Strength and Fitness Coaches that would love to hear this. . .are you listening Taku?
You cannot even begin the first steps in aproaching JKD, or yourself, if you are so far off of the planet called reality.
"Or if you think i'm just a crazy nut case whacko, let me know. "
You are. J/k. I disagree with some of what you said. About Katas especially. I agree with the need to learn forward pressure. Even in the clinch without trapping you need this. The pressure structure you mentioned is good. I know.
There is one thing missing however......ALIVENESS. WHere is the aliveness? My new pet project is making the 'tools' in chi-sao come alive. To do this you must understand aliveness. When you do, the answer to this whole thread becomes simple. Introduce, Isolate, Integrate. Here's a hint on how it can be done. First the "application" of said tools must be understood. Then, break away COMPLETELY from the "chi-sao structure." Get into boxing structure. Isolate the tools, & "alively" train their real applications. By the time you get to full resistance/sparring, you'll know if it can "work" or not.
Han, I live in seattle.
Demi, This works. I have been using it in a MMA enviroment for a few years now. I have never seen any nonearly bruce lee students do this. Not Dan, Vunak, Richardson, or any of them. I think you might be alittle confused. You talk about pain and pressure together, this is not what i mean. Pressure as in forward movement. It's not about pain, its using structure and technique to increase your strength so you can rip through someones defenses. Guy jumps you in the gas station, and you apply this pressure to his arms or body and it will knock him backwards. You could force him across the room into the wall while adding strikes in the whole time, then unload on the guy no problem. People that are untrained, or are but don't have a good low powerful center of gravity get thier balance completely destroyed by this. It has nothing to do with adding pain. I never even mentioned causeing pain. I know from experience any technique that relies on pain is worthless in a real fight. When i say pressure i mean just that... pressure. not pain. you sure you read the whole post?
When this kind of pressure is applied to you, your arms are either knocked to the side or slammed to your body then your whole body gets jolted backwards messing up your balance.
I understand your point. This is part of what "most"
people who have been doing hubud/chi do. There
is a lot more ytou can to to make your hubud/chi
sao better, "a lot more". I can give you 10 more
variations that bring out much more
aggressiveness, base, strength. BUT...
Hubud/chi sao will never work, that is, if they are
supposed to make you a better fighter.
I use hubud to give beginners something "I know
they will practice" to simply road map the body. I
show them where the hudbuts, elbows, knees,
wrenches, locks, bites, etc. They can use this
"basic" training structure to get a little movement
going. Then I can change it up, add variations,
pressure, resistance, have one guy go for a
takedown etc. as the drills progresses. I get them
to the point where they can move eachother around
the room and kick, sweep, lock etc. very
aggressively. That is how I used to do it full time.
Over the past two years I have been shown much
better ways. Now I've sort of run with the ball and
the training has changed quite a bit. We've put a lot
of time and thought into close quarters/clinch. The
results you get from progressive resistance, use of
training gear, goal oriented sparring etc. far
outweigh what you get from "hubud/chi sao (energy
Here's the example I give to my clients:
If you kick some guy in the thigh and then you
straight blast him 'he has recieved PAIN -
PRESSURE' (if you've given him a hell of a thigh
kick and a viscious blast - not some of the crap I
see passing for a thigh kick and a blast) now when
you get into trapping range your training in hubud
can kick into gear and you can unload on the guy.
Now... You in a gas station rest room and
someone comes in and grabs you by the collar
and starts to wail on you. Oh, trapping range!!!???
Remember, you have not given him the PAIN -
PRESSURE... He's not hurt...and he's punching
you... You now have to deal with his strength and
his clarity of purpose has not been diminished by
Or people say... "even if you can't enter and blast,
once you've got the neck 'he's yours cause all he's
got are those LITTLE BODY SHOT FROM
UNDERNEATH" Those freakin little body shots can
drop you sooooo fast, you better fear them.
In my view hubud/chi sao is dated technology that
has 'some' application. It's important to recognise
it's real (diminished) significance in modern
Interesting, I met a guy in ottawa once who was from the Glover school of JKD and he did Chi Sao just like this. Where are you from.
Pressure and structure are whats required. I'm going to describe how to learn to develop this with either chi sau or hubud. I'm not sure if this method is used in traditional wing chun or escrima, but this is something i learned from Jesse Glover, Patrick Strong, and James DeMiles. This is supposedly bruce lee's method for applying this stuff.
I cannot tell you what the structure is, it has to be shown, but I'm pretty sure you guys will be able to figure it out with the following drills. This structure can be learned from wing chun forms or any well put together kata. Which by the way is the purpose of kata, they are not supposed to be techniques against imaginery opponents but exagerated structures, taught large and wide, then ment to be shrunken down. I'll explain that more if you guys want later. bruce did the sil lum tao on a daily basis, i have been told this structure is one of the major things that gave him his super strength, speed, power.
Ok, step 1
Do chi sau/hu bud normally. Get the motion down. Nothing fancy yet.
You and your partner stand in range with your feet side by side, should length apart about. No lead, stand square. Now do chi sau/hu bud but lean forward. If your structure is correct you will hold each other up, yes this works for hu bud too if you do it right. If one of you has bad structure you will crash into each other. Whoever falls into thier partners arms is the one with the bad structure (or worse structure if you both are off). Keep practicing this till you can hold each other up.
Now your legs assume a fighting stance. Use whatever stance you want. Now instead of leaning you are going to push off your rear foot and push forward into your partner. Your goal is to be able to hold each other back and be pushing as hard as you can. (Its insane how hard Jesse Glover's pressure is) Once you work up to pushing very hard against your partner... Congrats! you have good structure! Now to use it in a fight...
Let me start by saying you do not need to stay in the fook/tan/bong or whatever postions you used to learn the structure. You should be able to recreate this structure no matter how you are holding your arms. Boxers are basicly using tan sau, and thai boxers are basicly using tan sau, its just a matter of which way your palm is facing.
During a fight when you get in close use your arms to apply pressure to your opponents arms. His arms will crumble under the pressure. Your hands will likely be very close to him after this. This is why the one inch punch was created. Remember, the point of the one inch punch is not to send someone flying but cause shock in thier body. Like hitting a heavy bag, you don't want it to swing away but crumble from the force. Moving people with the one inch punch is for impressing your friends at parties ;)
This pressure will beat pummelling, well i should say CAN beat pummeling. Pummeling works off the same structure (everything does) so it comes down to who is better. On the grappling note I'm sure your aware that even tho you have gained center line and hit your opponent he may still be moving forward and can still get to grappling range. If it seems your opponent is doing this don't punch, push his shoulder or body to stop his forward movement. If you have gotten really good at this structure you can stop any sized opponent from moving forward, I should say you have a GOOD CHANCE of stopping any opponent :) After you have stopped them go into your blast, knee eldo headbutt or whatever.
What if you apply your structure and his arms didn't move? Wing chun guys are not the only ones you have to worry about. I have had grapplers stop me many times, most of the time because they were pummeling. When this stalemate happens it is time to quickly push, pull, or jerk thier arms then try to apply the pressure again. This is where trapping comes in. Wing chun style traps work pretty good from this pressure thing. In fact this is the only time i think wing chun style traps can be pulled off, at least its the only time i can use them.
Now for a quick run down of the old pak and punch entry. First off, its easier to get power if you pak then punch instead of doing them at the same time. The speed you lose is ok if you pak right. how do you pak right? Use the structure!! Your pak should be powerful, basicly like a punch. Drive your structure into them with the pressure. Your opponents arm should slam against thier body, you should be sending shockwaves through them, causing them to step backwards and be thrown off balance, now you have a great opening for a powerful punch.
Please give me feed back! Oh, about the structure, your legs and hips are just as important as your arms. A weak lower body will cause your arms to not crumble but you will still be knocked backwards. If something seems screwy give me feedback and i'll try to explain it better, if you have any questions about the structure of the arms, legs, hips, shoulders please ask. Or if you think i'm just a crazy nut case whacko, let me know. Thanks for reading, hope you learned something.
Delaney, I seldom practice the forms. I still have them memorized. ALthough I know you can use the chi-sao principle (and tools) in sparring, I can also tell you that based on your posts, you don't quite have a full understanding of "aliveness". That is aliveness; the SBG definition. I do however believe you can and have used these tools while sparring, because I have also, and still do. Even now moreso, since training almost exclusively "alive".
If you understood what everyone really means by 'aliveness', you'd understand my previous post better. Take the tools out, & add them to a range. Train the tools & the range alive. See if you can pull them off while sparring isolated, then sparring alive (integrated). That's how to make chi-sao 'work'. It's the tools. Now before using the aliveness formula, I made it work sparring, because I "knew" how to (it sounds like you do too.) Aliveness makes it easier to do so. As for the forward pressure, that is a good way to train for it. Not the only way though. If you train Greco for example, you'll find you're supposed to use the same forward pressure in the clinch. Now as far as Kata/forms go,... gah!.
Demi you had me until 'fighter'. What's your definition of a "fighter"?
LOL at Demi. You'd better watch out! You keep saying things like that about the golden calf and you're going to have the acolytes knockin' at your door!LOL
DeLaney- So, you're saying that in order to be functional in the clinch we should add pressure? I think if we just add alive resistance and get rid of the cooperative opponent, add footwork, get rid of the pattern.....we could be onto something.
Matt, are you taking notes?
Delaney..do you have any video footage of you (or anyone for that matter) using this stuff in fight/sparring? If so, maybe you could send us a copy?
"You cannot even begin the first steps in aproaching JKD, or yourself, if you are so far off of the planet called reality."
Matt is just so damn qoutable...I should probably start saving these...Stick? New mission.
Lol, you are a very rude and arrogant. I'm sorry you never learned how to use this stuff but i did. I compete in MMA so i know what I can actually use in a fight and what helps me. I can pull this stuff off going full contact. I am either lying or i know something you don't. Are you calling me a liar?
"Matt, there are certain ways you can align bones and isolate muscles that give you maximum leverage inside your body to a level way above normal. You can learn
this from the sil lum tao"
You are kidding right? I know you are not. . .but I it still amazes me sometimes.
And people wonder why MMArtists and, fighters don't take JKD people as whole seriously. This is why JKD is still a joke to most of the functional, (read sports) Martial Arts community.
"Maybe this world is another planet's Hell."
- Aldous Huxley
Judging by your posts I don't think you are bright enough to be a liar. Most likely. . .simply ignorant. But don't despair. You are certainly not alone.
Rather then getting angry, why don't you think about the logic of what you are saying. Because there is none.
"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper."
- Robert Frost
"""Bruce did actually do the sil lum tao on a regualr
basis, its even in the new Tao. As for his strength
coming from it, this was told to me by several
people with personal first hand experience with
Don't tell me you think Bruce Lee was a
He was not. He was a teacher and an actor.
Matt, there are certain ways you can align bones and isolate muscles that give you maximum leverage inside your body to a level way above normal. You can learn this from the sil lum tao. Bruce did actually do the sil lum tao on a regualr basis, its even in the new Tao. As for his strength coming from it, this was told to me by several people with personal first hand experience with him. And the structures have done wonders for me.
Kenwingjitsu, I agree with you about the aliveness thing 100%, and do apply it to chi sao, i just don't know how to explain it so i had to leave allot out of my post. As for the kata thing, i have seen a couple karate ones, and a few chinese ones that taught the same stuff as wing chuns forms, and based on what others have told me, I'm pretty sure they all started like this in the beginning. How do you feel about the wing chun forms? do you still do em?
I have met Mat hume and his students. I'm sure SBG is great but its no AMC. We do have someone fighting for the UFC HW championship fight next UFC. aaron riley, jeff monson, matt hume, dennis hallman, josh barnett... I am surronded by some real talent. I'm not some random dork talking out his ass. I havn't done any hard sparring with any of the pros in amc yet(did some light sparring with aaron and did way better then i thought i would, i lost because of cardio, not because of lack of skill), but this pressure/wc stuff whoops on the nonpros there. I'm out of shape at the moment but i'm going back to amc soon, then when my cardio is back up i'll be competing.