liquidrob - If he guard is a neutral position like everyone says than sweep that lands in guard should be worth no points, would make passing, side, mount, back be the goal, not pull, sweep and win or the silly 50/50 advantage battles
Sweeping would still be valuable because you would need to get on top to score or gets sweeps that land you in better positions
This is basically what I suggested. All you'd need is 3 points for side control, 4 for mount and 4 for the back. (Number of points is obviously arbitrary.) The rest takes care of itself.
bgup619 - I dont think scoring is the issue here either. these guys are finding creative ways to win. I am tired of all the crying going on about this. You dont like guard players?? smash and pass.. ohh you cant? well they must be doing something right then. get your precious takedown before he pulls.. personally thats what i try.. or just let the guy pull and start passing. double guard pull? ohh well, they arent competing to entertain you, they are competeing to win based on the rules in place.
Buchecha said during his interview on the inside bjj podcast that he needs to win so he can book more seminars. if hes not on the podium he doesnt get name recognition, he cant book as many seminars, he wont make the money he needs to survive while he trains full time. Not as relevant ecause he is very exciting to watch but thats the mindset of high level comp guys.
-seems like most of the complaining about scoring is by fanboys that have never stepped on an ibjjf mat. Go sign up and show us all how "you would do it" ass clowns..
sorry for the FRAT but this shit is getting old.
You called me ass clown, so brought it to this level now it's going to come back at you.
You stated that they are trying to win based on the rules in place. No shit, dumbass. Obviously if you want to win then you should play to the advatage of the rule set/point system. The behavior of the competitors is determined by the rules. THAT'S WHY I PROPOSED A NEW POINT SYSTEM TO CHANGE THE BEHAVIORS OF THE COMPETITORS. Was your brain too small to comprehend that?
Some of us believe that BJJ is a martial art not interpretive dance and that it's sportive aspect should stay true to this. Obviously when you make something a sport you have to make some concessions away from real fighting, but the double butt flop sissy shit has gone too far astray.
Sgt. Slaphead - A lot of talk on this forum about ranks and mat skills, etc. No one can deny a person is skilled when they can tap a bunch of people on the mat, at tourneys or win championships. But that does not define the art of BJJ IMHO.
I know (and have even had several admit) they have near zero standup ability and yet most will continue to progress in rank. So eventually we have a system as countlphie stated "perpetuated by the instructors above them." Add another element, that of being able to use BJJ in a fight context. In the end we get a narrowly defined and highly efficient technique base, strategy and tactics useful for an artificially defined environment. Is this BJJ?
I understand that people train BJJ for different reasons and it seems most people train it for recreational and sportive interests.....that's fine, but in other threads when we have posters stating that only people who win/place at high levels of competition should be promoted makes me fucking LOL! BJJ IS FIRST&FOREMOST A MARTIAL ART. If people want to just do it for fun and competition and can be encouraged, but the baseline of the skillsets should be toward the use of BJJ technique for defensive uses, which is standup, clinch and ground......a basic well-rounded approach to BJJ.
Perhaps we need to "SAVE BJJ" rather than "SAVE SPORT BJJ" because it seems sport BJJ is doing just fine and it's the art that slowly dieing.
Tyler Bishop - Everyone is assuming they know whats happening in all these matches, and that's not true. There is a a lot of false statements on this thread.
Here are the facts...how often guard is really pulled, etc.
Tyler, who do you think is making the false statements?
From what I see in those charts, I am mostly vindicated that BJJ is abandoning takedowns.
The lightweights and lighter, and the women essentially have no takedown skills. Middle on up is doing better, but 3 out the 5 is still doing over 50% guard pulls. I am astonished at rooster and featherweights.
I'll say again to all reading this thread: If you are supposed to be a ground fighter, but you don't really know how to take someone to the ground very well, then there is something backwards about the skills you've developed. Just imagine, there may be people in our martial art who reach blackbelt but barely know how to get a fight to the ground except pulling guard. Really? Think about that. What if that person gets into a fight on the street. Are they going to pull guard? Yes, I know that sport BJJ isn't fight. But are you really practicing a martial art if those are shitty fighting skills you get from practicing?
Didn't read the thread, but FILA already has a rule set that you would approve of. They have already held tournaments with these rules, but if you look at their 2013 calendar there is gonna be ALOT more. Rules are for gi and no gi.
Triple_B - Didn't read the thread, but FILA already has a rule set that you would approve of. They have already held tournaments with these rules, but if you look at their 2013 calendar there is gonna be ALOT more. Rules are for gi and no gi.
Those are definately better than IBJJF. I would much rather compete in a FILA. Doesn't look like they have any near me though, and seems like most events are being held in the eastern hemisphere.
How a match is won or how it gets to the mat is of little importance to me......what is important is whether the art becomes defined by it sportive aspects. As long as people advancing through the ranks promote a well-rounded curriculum based upon functional skills applicable outside of tbe narrow confines of competition then it matters little in reality, but is this the case.......doesnt seem so.
Just because someone polls guard in competition doesn't mean they don't know takedowns. Remember, in a street fight I highly doubt most will ever encounter another trained individual, so takedowns can be very rudimentary (i.e. Gracie-T position to trip).
I think what stands out to me in the numbers the most is the complaining over "double-guard pulling running rampant", when it is less than 10% of all matches.
Tyler Bishop - Everyone is assuming they know whats happening in all these matches, and that's not true. There is a a lot of false statements on this thread.
Here are the facts...how often guard is really pulled, etc.
These stats seam pretty clear to me that guard pulling in general is taking precedence over the takedown. And from my obvservations over the years it is pretty shocking how much alot of upper belts lack takedown ability. With that said the fila rules are on the right path but the takedown/guard pull rule should be increased to 2points and that would significantly change competition.
Tyler Bishop - Just because someone polls guard in competition doesn't mean they don't know takedowns. Remember, in a street fight I highly doubt most will ever encounter another trained individual, so takedowns can be very rudimentary (i.e. Gracie-T position to trip).
I think what stands out to me in the numbers the most is the complaining over "double-guard pulling running rampant", when it is less than 10% of all matches.
while i do agree with you somewhat, i dont think its the fact that people dont know takedowns its that there is a lack of proficiency in them, and i do agree also with the fact most ppl on the street wont be trained individuals the less proficiency in a takedown still gives untrained individuals more opportunity than someone who is skillful and at the upper levels that really shouldnt be acceptable.
Lastly i totally agree with you totally on the double guard thing as much as i hate it i dont think that is some much the real issue either think the broader issue is that one person is more often than not pulling guard with out even trying to attempt any standup whatsoever
Tyler Bishop - Just because someone polls guard in competition doesn't mean they don't know takedowns. Remember, in a street fight I highly doubt most will ever encounter another trained individual, so takedowns can be very rudimentary (i.e. Gracie-T position to trip).
I think what stands out to me in the numbers the most is the complaining over "double-guard pulling running rampant", when it is less than 10% of all matches.
WTF.....so our standup skill should only aspire to be "rudimentary" compared to our matwork? We should only aspire to be capable to deal with untrained opponents? THAT'S A FUCKING RECIPE FOR DISASTER!
Ain't nothing "rudimentary" about takedowns against a resisting opponent. Entering against a striking opponent or dealing with one who had a little HS wrestling experience will show this.....add a good dose of desire to fuck your shit up and I'd want as much skill developed as I can get on my side. If one is to only statically practice off the "T" I guess it would be. But if one is to become proficient and be able to pass on that knowledge and skill like any other BJJ technique then it requires progressive resistance and intensity in training.
This mentality reflects the p.o.v. that sport/competition oriented curriculum and development is the foundation of the style and where the emphasis is or should be. If that is so for a particular school or individual.....FINE! But like I mentioned previously, seems people are of the idea that that is the defining aspect of the art and even the basis for advancement.......so what does this mean for the future of the art?
Tyler Bishop - Just because someone polls guard in competition doesn't mean they don't know takedowns. Remember, in a street fight I highly doubt most will ever encounter another trained individual, so takedowns can be very rudimentary (i.e. Gracie-T position to trip).
I think what stands out to me in the numbers the most is the complaining over "double-guard pulling running rampant", when it is less than 10% of all matches.
while i do agree with you somewhat, i dont think its the fact that people dont know takedowns its that there is a lack of proficiency in them, and i do agree also with the fact most ppl on the street wont be trained individuals the less proficiency in a takedown still gives untrained individuals more opportunity than someone who is skillful and at the upper levels that really shouldnt be acceptable.
Lastly i totally agree with you totally on the double guard thing as much as i hate it i dont think that is some much the real issue either think the broader issue is that one person is more often than not pulling guard with out even trying to attempt any standup whatsoever
Was typing my post before I saw yours.....GOOD POINT ABOUT "PROFICIENCY"
I don't think this will do enough to discourage guard pulling because you are giving lots of points for sweeping even when you end up in top guard. People will just eat the -1 to get 3 points from the sweep. In your scoring system sweeping is one of the most valuable things you can do.
guard pull - 3 if a guy wants guard that bad make him pay.if no take dn in the 1st 2 mins.flip a coin and start from the guard
I think there is a difference when both competitors are fighting for a take down with grip control and one decides to jump into guard or places his foot on a hip and sits down versus just just sitting on your ass as soon as the match begins. I hate to see a guy immediately fall to his ass because he is scared to stand up and fight....it is a bitch move.....and yeah I said it.
lot of people arguing about points. how about just make all submissions legal again like the old days. go back and watch Worlds 1996-2000 way more exciting.
FILA has good rules but more important the refs really push the pace.
On the Mat - lot of people arguing about points. how about just make all submissions legal again like the old days. go back and watch Worlds 1996-2000 way more exciting.
FILA has good rules but more important the refs really push the pace.
i dont think its the pace thats the problem it is the fact that certain skill sets are ignored...and as far as illegal moves i 100% agree... the fact that high level competition has certain holds banned is a huge load of crap also, i can understand at lower levels the need to ban certain moves but the fact that at the highest they are banned is bs
Triple_B - Didn't read the thread, but FILA already has a rule set that you would approve of. They have already held tournaments with these rules, but if you look at their 2013 calendar there is gonna be ALOT more. Rules are for gi and no gi.
Those are definately better than IBJJF. I would much rather compete in a FILA. Doesn't look like they have any near me though, and seems like most events are being held in the eastern hemisphere.
Yea, unfortunately US wrestling does not support submission grappling even though they represent FILA grappling in the US and hold the trials to make the US team. BJJ doesn't support it because they feel the rules favor those with stand up grappling backgrounds to much. Hopefully things pick up. I would do every comp in this format if I could.
