FlyingKnee_bar - instead of penalizing -1 or -2 for the guy pulling the guard it should jsut be +1 or +2 for the guy that ended on top, that would solve everything
But that's really the same thing.
right i just meant for aesthetic reasons its just easier to add points instead of subtracting
but i think having this rule will put a much higher emphasis on takedowns at the higher levels since matches are so tight, i have plenty of gripes with the way bjj is scored just i think this would be a step in the right direction, that would be ready to implement immediately
nate7 - The problem isn't the rules or takedowns- tons of matches I have seen in ADCC where both of the competitors are trying for takedowns but cant get it. Most of the time it seems there waiting almost half the match before they really try.
Its about issuing a penalty or point deduction for stalling. Now that will open up a new bag of worms with the Refs but I can't think of anything else that would make things more watchable.
Yes, we need to call stalling better.
But pulling guard is still sissy.<br type="_moz" />
I get what your saying but for the sport aspect- which what it is I dont mind guard pulling. For example Cyborg Abreu's guard is exciting. I would rather watch him do his guard work then try and maybe get a take down for ten minutes.
triso - This is true. I was just trying to even it out a bit for players who prefer to work off their back.
The way I see it is that the guard is a neutral position, so you shouldn't get points for switching around in a neutral position.
How is it neutral? The guard player has the advantage. Not saying they should get points for pulling guard. But it's not a good place to be if they have an aggressive guard.
triso - This is true. I was just trying to even it out a bit for players who prefer to work off their back.
The way I see it is that the guard is a neutral position, so you shouldn't get points for switching around in a neutral position.
How is it neutral? The guard player has the advantage. Not saying they should get points for pulling guard. But it's not a good place to be if they have an aggressive guard.
Yeah, the guard has gotten so dangerous it's not truly neutral anymore, but if that's the case then if you sweep to top guard position you've put youself in a more dangerous position. So, why should you get points for that?
part of the "issue" is that instructors are customizing their training based on tournament rules, and thus they are empowering the rule makers to define what the art is (and is becoming)
this isn't necessarily an instructor's fault. they are doing what anybody would do, because the tournaments are the proving grounds of the art.
guard pullers are not doing anything wrong. if they are extremely skilled at the guard, then they should go there. i think most would agree that it's a good idea to play to your strengths in a competition.
some may say that students and instructors are losing sight of what the point of martial arts is, but i would argue it's really up to each person.
but that's really the "issue." Each person has to figure out why they do this, and what "brazilian jiu jitsu" means. some may have to go back further and figure out, "why martial arts at all?"
depending on that reason, some are going to just focus on the sportive aspect of the art. to go further, this might depend on what your philosophy of self-defense is. is it to stand your ground and defend if necessary? or is it to take initiative and subdue a potential threat? some may use it for completely offensive purposes (ie mma). then, a lot of people are just trying to relieve stress, have fun, or stay in shape.
by changing the rules, it doesn't change how people are going to act, which is based on their own motivations.
so what you guys really should be discussing is, what is the point of bjj, and competition? and why do you think you are correct, and how do you plan on passing on that message?
for all you know, if you are a potential instructor, your answer will only pertain to your own students. because i don't think you can just go around pushing your ideas on other people just because you think the martial art should look or be a certain way.
(on that note, i agree that take downs are severely lacking in the teaching of this grappling art.)
triso - This is true. I was just trying to even it out a bit for players who prefer to work off their back.
The way I see it is that the guard is a neutral position, so you shouldn't get points for switching around in a neutral position.
How is it neutral? The guard player has the advantage. Not saying they should get points for pulling guard. But it's not a good place to be if they have an aggressive guard.
Yeah, the guard has gotten so dangerous it's not truly neutral anymore, but if that's the case then if you sweep to top guard position you've put youself in a more dangerous position. So, why should you get points for that?
Not sure what you mean exactly. You don't get points for sweeping and ending up in someones guard. Unless you're Brazilian maybe.
The double butt flops and butt flopping in general is lame. I don't mind a good guard pull though. You won't get points but if you have a good guard you've given yourself an advantage.
Rival School - People who want more points for takedowns just want the points system In there favor. You should be able to avoid a guard pull just like someone needs to avoid a takedown. Jiu jitsu isn't one dimensional yet you are trying to make it that. It isnt wrestling its jiu jitsu.
A true ground fighter should have the ability to take someone to the ground. It's ironic that BJJ players are ground specialists but they can't even take someone to the ground. Don't you see problem/irony in that?
Are you going to butt flop in the real fight?
Yes, sport BJJ isn't a real fight, and like I said above when you make something like this into a sport you make concessions away from a real fight, but the butt flopping is too much of a concession. We can still maintain a safe sportive activity like we currently have without going so far astray from the real martial aspect of the art.
What you don't realize is yes pulling guar can get the fight where you want it. Im talking dexterity. I'm not always going to be the best guy with takedown so why fight a battle I can not win? Another option is to pull guard where I'm also comfortable. The point is dictating the fight whether it be take you down or get you in open guard im happy either way.
countlphie - changing the point system is just a band aid...
by changing the rules, it doesn't change how people are going to act, which is based on their own motivations.
I have to completely disagree. For people who want to compete in BJJ, competition behavior evolves to take advantage the rules. Change the rules and you change the evolution of the sport.
Currently the sport is evolving towards the near elimination of takedows. This is backwards to me because if you are supposed to be a ground technician but don't really know how to take someone to the ground in the first place (except pulling guard) then that kind of negates the whole point of being good on the ground.
countlphie - Im not sure if the scoring is the real problem. I was never really taught take downs, and we spend little time with it.
I am learning stand up from wrestlers at my school but its on my own time
I dont blame instructors though. God knows theres already an insane amount to learn just on the ground. And a lot of it is perpetuated by the instructors above them who didnt spend much time on stand up either.
And there's the fucking problem when "sport" defines the direction of a style.....look at Judo.....look at many BJJers like yourself.
A lot of talk on this forum about ranks and mat skills, etc. No one can deny a person is skilled when they can tap a bunch of people on the mat, at tourneys or win championships. But that does not define the art of BJJ IMHO.
I know (and have even had several admit) they have near zero standup ability and yet most will continue to progress in rank. So eventually we have a system as countlphie stated "perpetuated by the instructors above them." Add another element, that of being able to use BJJ in a fight context. In the end we get a narrowly defined and highly efficient technique base, strategy and tactics useful for an artificially defined environment. Is this BJJ?
I understand that people train BJJ for different reasons and it seems most people train it for recreational and sportive interests.....that's fine, but in other threads when we have posters stating that only people who win/place at high levels of competition should be promoted makes me fucking LOL! BJJ IS FIRST&FOREMOST A MARTIAL ART. If people want to just do it for fun and competition and can be encouraged, but the baseline of the skillsets should be toward the use of BJJ technique for defensive uses, which is standup, clinch and ground......a basic well-rounded approach to BJJ.
Perhaps we need to "SAVE BJJ" rather than "SAVE SPORT BJJ" because it seems sport BJJ is doing just fine and it's the art that slowly dieing.
I was reading about overtime in Olympic fencing and it sounded like a cool idea. They basically have a coin toss that the competitors don't see and one of them wins an advantage. Since the competitors don't know which of them has that advantage, they have to assume their opponent does. So it gives them even more incentive to go all out in the overtime. To me, that sounds way better than the lame ass "Judge' decision" that decides some sport bjj matches.
If he guard is a neutral position like everyone says than sweep that lands in guard should be worth no points, would make passing, side, mount, back be the goal, not pull, sweep and win or the silly 50/50 advantage battles
Sweeping would still be valuable because you would need to get on top to score or gets sweeps that land you in better positions
countlphie - changing the point system is just a band aid...
by changing the rules, it doesn't change how people are going to act, which is based on their own motivations.
I have to completely disagree. For people who want to compete in BJJ, competition behavior evolves to take advantage the rules. Change the rules and you change the evolution of the sport.
Currently the sport is evolving towards the near elimination of takedows. This is backwards to me because if you are supposed to be a ground technician but don't really know how to take someone to the ground in the first place (except pulling guard) then that kind of negates the whole point of being good on the ground. <br type="_moz" />
and the direction of the sport is evolving towards this because people are training to win competitions, not to learn a martial art.
so the problem starts at the school, not at the competition.
of course the competition is still a factor in the problem, but i would argue it's not the actual cause.
countlphie - Im not sure if the scoring is the real problem. I was never really taught take downs, and we spend little time with it. <br><br>I am learning stand up from wrestlers at my school but its on my own time<br><br>I dont blame instructors though. God knows theres already an insane amount to learn just on the ground. And a lot of it is perpetuated by the instructors above them who didnt spend much time on stand up either. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
And there's the fucking problem when "sport" defines the direction of a style.....look at Judo.....look at many BJJers like yourself.
exactly - everybody's clamoring to win competitions, so schools start teaching only to win competitions. and like judo, nearly every martial art has fallen victim to the same thing.
we can't fix the entire art/sport, and we can't expect the IBJJF or whatever to fix how people approach competitions, or the culture of wanting to win competitions and doing everything you can to do so.
what we can do as individuals is to make sure that students at our respective schools understand and recognize what martial arts is, and what self defense is. and also to make sure they recognize the benefits of competition, but also the pit falls of it.
What do you mean the IBJJF can't fix how people approach competition training? Of course it can, by changing the rules to something like I proposed.
When something becomes a sport people train to win by taking advatage of the rules of the sport. There is no changing this, so the only thing that can be done is change the rules.
The fix must come from the competitions, not from the schools. The schools will always follow the competitions.
My logic is this: the schools SHOULDN'T follow the competitions. Its the instructors responsibility to teach well rounded, balanced grappling. The instructor should not tailor training around a set of rules a couple of people came up with, no matter how "good" the rules are.
Thats how tae kwon do got destroyed. A bunch of old men got together in a room and one of them said "no punches to the face!"
Is it really his fault the art got ruined? Or is it all the other instructors who decided to train by these rules?
countlphie - My logic is this: the schools SHOULDN'T follow the competitions. Its the instructors responsibility to teach well rounded, balanced grappling. The instructor should not tailor training around a set of rules a couple of people came up with, no matter how "good" the rules are.
Thats how tae kwon do got destroyed. A bunch of old men got together in a room and one of them said "no punches to the face!"
Is it really his fault the art got ruined? Or is it all the other instructors who decided to train by these rules?
