I have a pretty strong grasp of MMA history, but I was also pretty young when a lot of this stuff went down.
I have been talking a lot lately about the UFC title and the rankings immediately after Fedor/Werdum, then after Lesnar/Carwin, and now after Cain Lesnar.
Also about the linear titles and history of who beat whom.
What I have been saying is that Werdum is the linear champion of not only Pride, Rings, and Black Entertainment Television's "The Iron Ring". But also of the original UFC HW world title, while Cain currently posseses the 3rd version of the title.
It turns out I was mistaken. Thats simply not true.
Cain in fact posseses the FIFTH version of the UFC HW title.
This title is one that was made following the motorcycle accident of Frank Mir. Afterwards, the man Mir had just defeated for the belt in Tim Sylvia, faced the #1 contender in Andrei Arlovski, to fight for the injured Mir's title.
Mir's title(the 4th version) was won from Sylvia, who himself got it off of Ricco Rodriguez.
Ricco got it not by beating the HW champion, but by beating the former HW champion in Randy Couture.
Barnett had beaten Randy for the belt(3rd version) but tested positive for steroids. So while blackballed and stripped of the belt, the results were not overurned and declared a NC. Barnett left and retained the UFC HW title victory.
That title that left with Barnett had a decent shelf life going back to Randleman vs Williams. Neither was the champ at the time but Bas Rutten had won and then immediately retired with the belt(2nd version) So they had to create a new belt to continue with.
The original title was removed when Randy left as the UFC HW champ in 1997 and then started losing in Japan. It linearly is passed almost exclusively through the hands of the best fighters and #1 ranked champions until it presently winds up with Werdum
In summary:
1st UFC HW title: Coleman-Smith-Couture-Inoue-Kerr-Fujita-Coleman-Nog-Fedor-Werdum
2nd UFC HW title: New tournament pits Rutten against Randleman. Rutten wins and immediately retires. Defends one time, 8 years later against Warpath.
3rd UFC HW title: New tournament pits Pete Williams against Randleman. Randleman wins. Couture comes back as the last man to hold the original UFC title in the UFC(to this very day) and takes it. Couture eventually loses to Barnett. But Barnett tests positive and leaves the UFC, with he belt.
4th UFC HW title: Former champ Couture fights Ricco Rodriguez. Ricco wins. Tim Sylvia takes out Ricco. Mir takes out Tim Sylvia. Mir is then in a horrendous auto accident and cannot fight indefinitely so he is stripped of the belt.
5th UFC HW title: Former champion Sylvia fights Arlovski for the new belt. Arlovski wins. Sylvia wins it back. Couture comes back yet again as the last man to ever hold the original UFC HW title in the UFC(to this day) and wins. Couture loses to Lesnar. Lesnar loses to Cain.
Thats where we are now.
Feel free to check my information.
GhostofaWarrior - Frat big time
Definitely, bro. Lets me save you the time, nothing important happened before 2009 anyway.
HELWIG -LOL. Did you get your Strikeforce tickets?GhostofaWarrior - Frat big time
Definitely, bro. Lets me save you the time, nothing important happened before 2009 anyway.
"LOL. Did you get your Strikeforce tickets?"
yes, I did. Fedor in dirty Jersey.
Looks absolutely perfect and if I wasnt on my phone app I would vtfu. Again great work sir
HELWIG -
1st UFC HW title: Coleman-Smith-Couture-Inoue-Kerr-Fujita-Coleman-Nog-Fedor-Werdum
I like to view the HW title lineage as dating back to Shamrock.
My reasoning is because Shamrock was the champion as a heavyweight, he beat Severn (who is a heavyweight) to win it, defended his title against Oleg (heavyweight), Kimo (heavyweight), and then lost it to Severn (heavyweight). Severn as the champion fought Coleman for the newly created HW title and the old title was wiped out and a new one was born. But this is just the way I like to view it, good post Helwig.
I see what youre saying, but Im following the UFC's own classification.
There were tournament champions, then superfight champions, then weight division champions.
"This. Shamrock was the first HW champ of the UFC with his superfight belt. "
But what are you forgetting pal? That Shamrock never won a tournament to qualify for a superfight in the first place.
Everyone else did.
So no, Shamrock was not the first ever UFC HW champ. He was a 2-1-1 Superfight competitor with zero tournament wins.
Sorry 3-1-1.
But my precedent is important. It should have stayed about tournament winners being in superfights. It was way harder to win 3 fights the same night than to win just one random match.
HELWIG - I see what youre saying, but Im following the UFC's own classification.I agree with what you are saying Helwig, you are a very good poster. I would just like to add that Shamrock did make it to the finals at UFC 3 and all he had to do was beat Harold Howard (lol) to win the tournament.
There were tournament champions, then superfight champions, then weight division champions.
"This. Shamrock was the first HW champ of the UFC with his superfight belt. "
But what are you forgetting pal? That Shamrock never won a tournament to qualify for a superfight in the first place.
Everyone else did.
So no, Shamrock was not the first ever UFC HW champ. He was a 2-1-1 Superfight competitor with zero tournament wins.
In fact, Shamrock was the only person at UFC 3 to win two fights that night, everyone else had one win or less (not counting Howard's "win" over Royce). Shamrock actually had the most successful night out of the entire field in the tournament. His mental state + jacked up knee caused him to toss away a virtually guaranteed win in the finals over Harold freaking Howard.
Good thread
"In fact, Shamrock was the only person at UFC 3 to win two fights that night, everyone else had one win or less (not counting Howard's "win" over Royce). Shamrock actually had the most successful night out of the entire field in the tournament. His mental state + jacked up knee caused him to toss away a virtually guaranteed win in the finals over Harold freaking Howard."
Yeah that has to have been a huge regret for him later on.
Funaki Masakatsu #1 - I like to view the HW title lineage as dating back to Shamrock.
My reasoning is because Shamrock was the champion as a heavyweight, he beat Severn (who is a heavyweight) to win it
There was no specific, formal "HW" class in NHB yet - only Open-weight. (Btw, Ken-Severn 1 would not have represented a valid Linear Championship fight as well, even at Open-weight, since Ken and Severn were not the definitive top-2 at that point, which would have necessarily included Royce - the legit Champion from the early UFC's who had not lost that distinction since.)
There is actually more of an argument for Ken-Severn II (ugh) being a more legitimate "HW Championship" in that there was actually more of a distinction emerging between HW's and under-HW's (or MW's/under-200ers) in NHB by that point, from the previous catch-all open-weight mix. (As there was also a specific HW division and title established in Extreme Fighting, another major league from those early NHB days - where Extreme Fighting's title was then subsequently merged into the UFC Championship anyway, with an official unification fight between Coleman and Mo Smith.)
Funaki Masakatsu #1 - Severn as the champion fought Coleman for the newly created HW title and the old title was wiped out and a new one was born.
Not quite. The UFC HW Championship was supposed to finally, formally unify the UFC Tournament and UFC Superfight Championships - and was specifically billed as such. It was not just completely starting over from scratch.
Plus, by the time of Severn-Coleman, not only was there a distinct HW division implemented now, but Severn and Coleman were now the definitive top-2 active HW's in NHB at that point - to thus rightfully form a definitive HW Championship.
VTFU HELWIG.
lol.
Btw, the "Superfight" title ultimately did not really matter as a "championship" in itself at the time of Ken-Severn I. People weren't going, "Oh man, it's the Superfight CHAMPIONSHIP!!! That really means a lot!" LOL. No, instead, they were going, "Oh man, this is a HUGE matchup between the top-2 monsters after Royce!"
And the fight itself really was huge - as was the win for Ken. But the "title" itself was not. That "Superfight Championship" label was just more of an afterthought at that point, if that.
The "Superfight" title as a valid, defining Championship for the UFC really started to take off (and gain traction as a legitimate Championship) by the time of UFC 9, where there was this massive (for that time) hype for the Ken-Severn rematch for the "Championship," going into that event, which had been built up specifically around that "Championship." (Then that fight was such a letdown for all that build-up - where it really singularly dissipated much of the momentum that the early UFC's had accumulated up to that point.)
Unlike Ken (or Severn for that matter, for his non-definitive win over Ken), Coleman was then the SINGULARLY definitive Champion for the UFC, right after he dominantly beat Severn, like Ken (or the "Superfight champion") never really was.
Then the most legitimate HW Championship in NHB/MMA all ultimately stemmed from Coleman (and then Mo Smith, the unified HW Champion).
What I find more interesting about this thread is where we end up with the 3rd UFC title.....
Barnett keeps winning until Crocop
Crocop holds the lineal title ntil he loses to Fedor who then passes it on to Werdum last year.
So arguably TWO of the most established UFC belts that have ever been created are now lineally traced to Werdum.
GREAT point about Smith unifying the EF and UFC titles. Nobody would believe that the Extreme Fighting Champion back in the day came in and beat the UFC champ IN THE UFC.
"So arguably TWO of the most established UFC belts that have ever been created are now lineally traced to Werdum."
All roads lead to Fedor my man. The Black Entertainment Television HW title found its way to Fedor in record time.
Looks solid to me.
alot of thinkin must of gone into that.. lol
VTFU Helwig
rockwell - So arguably TWO of the most established UFC belts that have ever been created are now lineally traced to Werdum.
Well, if you want to start off with each version of a UFC HW title, and then follow where that individual "champion's" lineage ultimately led to:
The original (and most legitimately established) HW Championship from Severn-Coleman - which was the single most definitive HW Championship in NHB at the time - ends up with Werdum today.
The next version of a HW title in the UFC officially went to Bas, who retired.
The next version then went to Randleman, who next loses to Randy.
Randy, however, as the reigning UFC HW champion, next loses to Valentijn Overeem in RINGS. (Exactly like how Randy, as the reigning UFC HW Champion and the Linear HW Champion of MMA at that point, went over to Japan and lost that lineage to Enson previously - by quick and easy submission, much like against Valentijn.)
And that lineage from that 3rd version of the UFC HW title effectively ends up with Werdum as well - as right after Valentijn submitted Randy, Valentijn was submitted later that same night by Nog in the finals - and we are then back to the originally defining Championship lineage anyway, passing from Nog to Fedor to now Werdum.
Then Randy comes back to the UFC as still the officially reigning UFC HW titleholder (even though he had just lost outside the UFC yet again, to Valentijn), and next officially loses the title to Barnett - who, as HELWIG pointed out, next loses to Cro Cop, who next loses to Fedor - and we are right back to Werdum once again.
So Werdum holds 3 different UFC HW title lineages, one from the original (and most definitive) Championship from Coleman-Severn - which was the most legitimate (and historically well-founded) one ever - as well as from the title then originated by Randleman-Williams (when the titleholder from that lineage, Randy, subsequently lost it to Valentijn), and the lineage from Randy-Barnett as well.
But ultimately, the one that really matters would be the original UFC and Linear Championship stemming from Coleman-Severn - which would be the equivalent of The Ring Magazine HW Championship for MMA today - held by Werdum.