Let me ask you this. Who made boxing into a big sport?
My whole point is 30 years after Danna is gone nobody will know who he was or what he did.
dabigchet - this is because you can only talk about 3 things (TUF origins, fedor and linear championships).
Oh the hypocrisy. This coming from one of the most one-dimensional noobs here.
Can you name a subject that you have EVER posted extensively on when it comes to MMA, aside from M-1/Fedor and your usual pro-Dana/Team UFC cheerleading? What else? I think it would be fair to say that I have posted on FAR more diverse subjects than you have, both in total and percentage of posts. (We can even bet on it if you want to challenge that point - looking at our last 100 posts, last 1,000, last month, last year, whatever. Let me know if you're up for it - and for how much.)
Look, I don't blame you for being so limited in your MMA posting - you just don't have the knowledge for it. That's fine, at least you limit yourself according to your limitations. But LOL @ you of all people calling anyone else out for lacking posting variety.
dabigchet - we are talking about which individual in would have the greatest legacy - be remembered as the greatest man. i noticed that, for the strength of your opinion here, you offered no specific alternative. how about YOU try to stay on topic, there champ?
Uh, what? Guess you missed this "specific alternative" in my very first post on this thread:
whistleblower - the Fertittas... - who then did the actual saving with their money, connections (especially with the NSAC), and decisions (especially to do TUF over Dana's objections).
And I love how you tell me to "try to stay on topic" - only after YOU tried to go on a tangent about how not to "reduce nearly 10 years of [UFC] history" to just "1 decision" - only to get owned on that same point by Dana's own words - and now, you suddenly want to get back "on topic" again. (I.e., back from your own attempted detour which backfired on you.)
And as far as your ridiculously inapt (as usual) Steve Jobs analogy goes - why were you not able to answer my previous question?
whistleblower - LMAO @ even trying to analogize Dana to Jobs. Can you point out ONE THING that Dana had done prior to TUF that had resulted in ANY stable and sustained success for the company, like Jobs had at least previously done with Apple, even before the iPod?
Seriously man, you come up with the most desperately stretching and far-fetched analogies. Please answer in what way is the Jobs analogy even fitting at all?
What makes pre-TUF Dana analogous to Jobs in ANY way when it came to having ALREADY established himself as a successful leader, by having achieved any kind of prior sustained success and viability for his company - up until the one decision he had been against, ended up saving the company for him?
dabigchet -Do you feel that TUF was directly responsible for the dramatic spike in PPV buys? Do you feel this spike would have happened without TUF - or do you feel that TUF was the necessary factor?
partly, no, and no. "the" implies only.Do you agree that there would have been no post-TUF boom at all, if not for TUF?
probably not
So you agree that the dramatic spike in PPV buys would NOT have happened without TUF - i.e., that TUF was necessary in order for it to have happened at all - and that there would "probably not" have been any post-TUF boom at all, if not for TUF. Thanks.
(But LOL @ TUF being only "partly" responsible for the IMMEDIATE doubling of PPV buys, and then the further skyrocketing of buys into the next year. Oh the denial. It was all just one happy coincidence, right? Okay then, please answer - what do you think was the single most important factor that was responsible for UFC PPV buys dramatically exploding both immediately after, and in the year following TUF?)
dabigchet -Do you agree with Dana and Lorenzo themselves when they have repeatedly stated that TUF was the one thing that ended up entirely saving the UFC - and that the UFC would not even be here, if not for TUF?
yes, but it is irrelevant to the question at hand.Do you feel Dana was responsible for TUF happening?
no, but irrelevant.
LOL. So you actually agree with Dana and Lorenzo when they say that the most critical decision in UFC history - actually the ONE thing that ended up entirely saving the UFC - is TUF. And yet who was actually responsible for TUF - the move that single-handedly saved the UFC, brought it to its mainstream boom, and directly turned it into the biggest MMA promotion in the world - is "irrelevant" to a discussion of who has had the "greatest legacy"?
Oh man. The desperate denial. Why do I think that if Dana had actually been the one who came up with TUF - or had at least even supported the idea - that you would suddenly think that the one decision that entirely saved the UFC would actually be "relevant" here.
dabigchet -What do you feel was the single most important decision in Zuffa history?
acquiring the UFC.
Nice evasion. But technically, the actual decision for "acquiring the UFC" was already made BEFORE Zuffa was even formed - which is specifically why Zuffa was even formed to begin with.
So let's try again:
What do you feel was the single most important decision in Zuffa history, since Zuffa was actually formed and since acquiring the UFC?
And what decision has Dana ever made since becoming UFC president that was as important as the one decision which was made despite his wishes, without which - according to Zuffa themselves - the UFC would not even exist? Please name it.
BELLATOR 2NITE!
Jons Forsberg -GriffinQ -Honestly wondering...did the second season of TUF bring in all that many extra viewers
you after the second there was also a third season. And a fourth... and a fifth, sixth... and a seventh season... so on.dabigchet -
except the ratings of TUF don't bear this out. this only makes sense if you believe that fans
1. watch a season of TUF
2. start ordering PPVs
3. never watch TUF again
that is whistleblower level delusion.
whereas you're arguing that it's alwats the same fans watch all the episodes, which is just as delusional.
TUF 1 averaged 1.9 viewers. That's larger than any PPVs buys the UFC's ever got gor a single show.
There's also the growth of in the last few years of DVR, downloading, etc that skew the traditional ratings system.
roomservicetaco - whistleblower, if you are saying that the Fertitta's had a bigger impact on the success of the UFC than DW, that's probably fair
Like I said before - it was the Fertittas' money (which even allowed Dana to go through the $44 million in the first place, and still survive), their connections (especially with the NSAC), and their decisions (especially to do TUF over Dana's objections) that ultimately "had a bigger impact on the success of the UFC" - and even altogether saved the UFC - more than anything Dana has ever done as president.
I'm not saying Dana hasn't worked hard or contributed to the sport - I actually agree to the tee with JimmzGlove's post about how Dana was successfully able to sell shit-sandwiches as steak to the noobs like dabigchet with the Ken-Tito rematches and Royce-Hughes, which were promotional moves that deserve major credit. I've actually stated virtually the exact same thing previously on other threads.
But ultimately, Dana is only even in the discussion for "greatest man in mma," or the single most important man in MMA history - directly and primarily because of TUF.
Because up until TUF, Dana had actually been regarded generally as a failure (or at the very least, less than a success) - and TUF is then what suddenly turned it all around for him, and dramatically turned him into this "great businessman." But if the one decision that he had actively opposed had not actually still happened, despite his wishes - he wouldn't even peripherally be considered for "greatest" at all.
roomservicetaco - Maybe Dana failed to recognize at the time that TUF would be a success, but he certainly had the company and its product positioned, from a presentation and a demographic standpoint, to be able to take advantage of any good opportunity that came its way.
What? Dana had "the company and its product positioned" to actually go under, if TUF had not been done.
And that "good opportunity that came its way" only did so AGAINST Dana's will - i.e., Dana did not even WANT that "good opportunity," but was forced into taking it by the Fertittas. That "good opportunity" was ultimately "take[n] advantage of" by the UFC, DESPITE Dana - not because of him.
CindyO -humphrey sphinctermuscle - Now there's a shocker. one of the majority owners talks up the guy they put in as the lead.
whoulda thunk :)
Exactly! It's common knowledge that successful billionaires hire/appoint presidents and then keep them around even if they suck... for TEN YEARS=) LMAO!
Cindy
lol touche. i didn't really mean 'lead' i really meant figure head, or talking head. but you got me.
damnit.
Jons Forsberg -GriffinQ -Honestly wondering...did the second season of TUF bring in all that many extra viewers
you after the second there was also a third season. And a fourth... and a fifth, sixth... and a seventh season... so on.dabigchet -
except the ratings of TUF don't bear this out. this only makes sense if you believe that fans
1. watch a season of TUF
2. start ordering PPVs
3. never watch TUF again
that is whistleblower level delusion.
whereas you're arguing that it's alwats the same fans watch all the episodes, which is just as delusional.
TUF 1 averaged 1.9 viewers. That's larger than any PPVs buys the UFC's ever got gor a single show.
I'm aware that there have been many seasons of TUF, asshole. Thanks for attempting to demean my intelligence. Read my question again. Did Tuf 2 specifically bring in many new viewers? For the people who got into Tuf 1 due to the reality show aspect, I feel as if Tuf 2 would have been a turn-off, as it was more centered on the fights/the stuff in the house was much more...mundane.
Bruce Lee is the greatest man in MMA.
whistleblower - What exactly has Dana done to be "the greatest man in mma"?
Did he create the new rules that directly led to sanctioning and getting the UFC back on PPV?
No, he inherited them. The rules and original sanctioning had already been put into place under the previous owners before Dana ever took over, before Zuffa was even formed.
Did Dana save the UFC and bring it to its unprecedented mainstream boom?
No. What was responsible for saving the UFC - from going under into the $44 million hole that Dana himself had run the UFC into up to that point - was TUF. And not only was Dana not responsible for TUF, he was actually against it ever happening - except he was forced into doing it by the Fertittas and SpikeTV.
And TUF is what ended up entirely saving the UFC and single-handedly exploding it into the mainstream.
So again - what exactly has Dana done to be "the greatest man in mma"? Please be specific.
The most critical thing Dana ever did was tip the Fertittas off that the UFC was for sale in the first place - who then did the actual saving with their money, connections (especially with the NSAC), and decisions (especially to do TUF over Dana's objections).
After reading this entire thread, I finally realized dabigchet is actually 'da-big-chet', and not the ever popular 'dabig-chet', which would make zero sense.
Huh. Weird science.
<blockquote>Jons Forsberg - <blockquote>GriffinQ - <br /><br />I'm aware that there have been many seasons of TUF, asshole. Thanks for attempting to demean my intelligence. Read my question again. Did Tuf 2 specifically bring in many new viewers? <br /></blockquote><br /><br />did TUF 2 bring in new viewers? lol What the fuck do you think? <br /><br />If you don't want pp to "demean your intelligence" then stop asking stupid questions. TUF 2 may not have been as exciting as TUF 1 as you say (I didn't watch it), but pp that missed season 1 but hear the buzz tuned in to watch it. As often happens, it got the hype from it's previous installment.</blockquote><br /><br /><br />
Never mind for asking the question, youre a fucking idiot. "Many new viewers"... this doesn't mean a few more people, btw. It means a recognizable increase in the ratings. Which, actually, it didnt. http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=3806&zoneid=13<br /><br /><br />Go fuck yourself.
dabigchet - so, the answer to who the greatest MAN in mma is "the fertittas". would anyone else like to explain to wb the logistical problem with his answer?
You mean, because I actually included TWO individuals ahead of Dana for being "the greatest man in mma," instead of just one - where even one would already be enough to exclude Dana from that singular distinction? Yeah, some "logistical problem" - when I present even more than is necessary. But hey, if you only want one - let's go with Lorenzo.
And btw, you conveniently skipped over these questions (after I answered yours). You wouldn't want to be guilty of - as you put it - "dick tucking" questions, would you?
whistleblower - LMAO @ even trying to analogize Dana to Jobs. Can you point out ONE THING that Dana had done prior to TUF that had resulted in ANY stable and sustained success for the company, like Jobs had at least previously done with Apple, even before the iPod?
what do you think was the single most important factor that was responsible for UFC PPV buys dramatically exploding both immediately after, and in the year following TUF?
What do you feel was the single most important decision in Zuffa history, since Zuffa was actually formed and since acquiring the UFC?
And what decision has Dana ever made since becoming UFC president that was as important as the one decision which was made despite his wishes, without which - according to Zuffa themselves - the UFC would not even exist? Please name it.
You previously seemed so particularly concerned about not "dick tucking" on answers, dabigchet. So I'll give you another chance to live up to your own point of principle.
Danas the man and loves and has dedicated his life to furthering this sport. Yes I think he would be remebered along with the bros as the best men to work in MMA.
The fans have already spoken, in a way. DW won the "Man of the Year" award-- beating out Lorenzo=) Folks do not really know LJ so, right or wrong, DW trumps the CEO in this case... IMO, of course.
Cindy
Jons Forsberg -CindyO - DW won the "Man of the Year" award-- beating out Lorenzo=)
Lady Gaga beat dozens of State leaders on Time's most influential poll. The kind of fans that voted based on who they've been exposed to the most, they're retards who should be taking Ritalin.
LOL! I agree about Gaga! The fans LOVE the Baldfather and he will forever be remembered as the GOAT of MMA promoting.
Cindy
CindyO -The first word that came to my mind when I thought of Dana was.......................gah............. I......................Jons Forsberg -CindyO - DW won the "Man of the Year" award-- beating out Lorenzo=)
Lady Gaga beat dozens of State leaders on Time's most influential poll. The kind of fans that voted based on who they've been exposed to the most, they're retards who should be taking Ritalin.
LOL! I agree about Gaga! The fans LOVE the Baldfather and he will forever be remembered as the GOAT of MMA promoting.
Cindy
..............overrated.
Dabigchet, when I wrote my FRAT posts, I actually answered your questions. You make your own FRAT posts - and yet still keep on "dick tucking."
You still did NOT answer this question:
whistleblower - LMAO @ even trying to analogize Dana to Jobs. Can you point out ONE THING that Dana had done prior to TUF that had resulted in ANY stable and sustained success for the company, like Jobs had at least previously done with Apple, even before the iPod?
So finally - can you point to ONE THING that Dana had done prior to TUF that resulted in ANY kind of sustained success for the company? Just one.
Why is this so difficult for you to answer - for you to come up with just one? Is it because there is NONE? So up until the one thing that ended up entirely saving the company - which only happened DESPITE his wishes - what had Dana EVER done to establish the company as stable and successful? Wasn't Dana generally considered a failure or disappointment before TUF? (Not that you would know firsthand - but ask around, do some research, find out from those who were around, and answer.)
dabigchet -What do you feel was the single most important decision in Zuffa history, since Zuffa was actually formed and since acquiring the UFC?
... the answer is TUF. this has been acknowledged.
Thank you for FINALLY answering this question directly and honestly. (And no, it was NOT "acknowledged" by you previously that "the answer is TUF" - because if you'll go back and note, you'll see that you actually answered this same question with a different, deceptive deflection instead. Again - the desperate denial was strong in you.)
So then who do you think was ultimately a "greater" factor or played the more critical role in the salvation and success of the UFC - Lorenzo or Dana? The guy who supplied the money, the connections (especially with the NSAC), and made the single most important decision in UFC history (as you now acknowledge) - who was ultimately responsible for the one thing that ended up both completely saving the company and directly bringing it to unprecedented success?
Or the guy who up until TUF was generally considered a failure, had run the company into a $44 million hole - into which it was about to go under - but was then completely bailed out by Lorenzo's and Frank's decision to do TUF, which actually happened against his wishes? (Especially since you now specifically agree that NO decision Dana has ever made in the entire history of the company has actually been as important.)
Just can't get over Dana fucking over Pride when he said he'd keep it :(
dabigchet - "So then who do you think was ultimately a "greater" factor or played the more critical role in the salvation and success of the UFC - Lorenzo or Dana"
the crux of the issue is that you don't understand that salvation and success are two different things. your new questions are retarded. a decision that dana made prior to 2004 that resulted in sustained success? what a stupid fucking question. seriously, what is your level of education? if people buy a failing business expecting to lose money and don't turn it around in 3 years (so, "none" is the answer to prevent you from harping), that brands them as failures eternally? they can never be recognized for success afterwards, no matter how dramatic the turnaround?
lol. something tells me that success, personally, is not something you are familiar with. am i right?
if i grow my business from $100K to $280K, is it a done deal that it will reach $1M or $1.6M over the next few years, or not? or, do you think that (in the case of an MMA promotion), the way i promote, who i sign, the matches i make, the tv and advertising deals i make, the orgs i acquire, what i pass on, what markets i expand to, the media coverage i get, how many shows i do, balancing free tv vs ppv, increasing sanctioning and acceptance, merchandising, etc. might have just a teeny eensy weensy little bit to do with the 500% increase in PPV buys from the post TUF I record to current record?
or, as you are suggesting, once you have a little bit of success, it is normal for a business to coast on that one decision and expect a 5 fold increase?
VTFU=)
Cindy