...how many would still say the winner was #1 in the world? Just curious.
For example, if Strikeforce said merely that Kharitonov was going to take two fights and then get a title shot -- would you say he was #1 in the world if he won the belt? Keep in mind that he is 3-3 in the last four years with losses to Alistair, Jeff Monson, and Aleksander; and that his only significant career win is Werdum, in a win almost as shitty as Arlovski's over Werdum.
Or Arlovski. 0-3 in his last three, KTFO in two of those, beaten twice by Tim who is his only significant career win other than that abomination of a fight with Werdum.
Or Rogers. Not much need be said there.
Or, let's consider Werdum. He beat Fedor IN HIS LAST FIGHT. He already beat Alistair. He already beat Bigfoot. But, for some reason, almost none of you consider him #1 in the world right now. Yet, oddly, you would if he or any other entrant else beat the EXACT SAME GUYS "in the tournament". I'm really curious to hear the rationale for this -- OBVIOUSLY you don't really subscribe to the "linear" ranking model, or you would all necessarily have Werdum at #1 already, yet at the same time you seem to think WHOEVER wins this "tournament" will Highlander-style be the best in the world as though he actually beat everyone in it.
It's really pretty fascinating. It's also hilariously ironic, in that many of you love to say "Zuffa shills" believe whatever Dana tells them, yet here you are, totally bowled over by Coker calling this a "tournament". You really ate up that "talking point"!
I don't understand how this is not a tournament? It has competitors, brackets, quarter finals, semi finals and finals? It's a single elimination tournament. What is there not to get? Why are you not happy about this?
orcus - ...how many would still say the winner was #1 in the world? Just curious.
For example, if Strikeforce said merely that Kharitonov was going to take two fights and then get a title shot -- would you say he was #1 in the world if he won the belt? Keep in mind that he is 3-3 in the last four years with losses to Alistair, Jeff Monson, and Aleksander; and that his only significant career win is Werdum, in a win almost as shitty as Arlovski's over Werdum.
Or Arlovski. 0-3 in his last three, KTFO in two of those, beaten twice by Tim who is his only significant career win other than that abomination of a fight with Werdum.
Or Rogers. Not much need be said there.
Or, let's consider Werdum. He beat Fedor IN HIS LAST FIGHT. He already beat Alistair. He already beat Bigfoot. But, for some reason, almost none of you consider him #1 in the world right now. Yet, oddly, you would if he or any other entrant else beat the EXACT SAME GUYS "in the tournament". I'm really curious to hear the rationale for this -- OBVIOUSLY you don't really subscribe to the "linear" ranking model, or you would all necessarily have Werdum at #1 already, yet at the same time you seem to think WHOEVER wins this "tournament" will Highlander-style be the best in the world as though he actually beat everyone in it.
It's really pretty fascinating. It's also hilariously ironic, in that many of you love to say "Zuffa shills" believe whatever Dana tells them, yet here you are, totally bowled over by Coker calling this a "tournament". You really ate up that "talking point"!
I think using the linear model is slightly flawed at HW when the best guys are split fairly evenly between two orgs. I think if the winner of the "tournament" comes out of the strong half (obviously Werdum,Fedor,Bigfoot,Uber), they are #1, whereas that is is not definitely the case if somebody comes out of the weaker bracket.
I think the best thing about this tournament is that it will keep these guys more active than they have been in the past, killing Dana's argument about the best in UFC fighting the best 3x year whereas in SF they rarely fight. Right now is kinda lookin like the opposite is about to happen with UFC having brock out a year, now Cain will sit a year, JDS will prob have 8 or 9 months out btwn fights by his next fight.
Even if the someone from the weaker half won, they would have still beaten the clear #1 from the stronger half. That makes them #1 in my book.
If Overeem beats Werdum and then Fedor for example, but loses to Kharitonov or Arlovski in the finals, how could you say that they would NOT have a claim to the #1 heavyweight title?
People hate on Brock a lot, claiming he didn't fight anybody til he fought Carwin. Cain's record of opponents is less than stellar as well; yet many have Cain as the clear #1 heavweight because he beat Brock. Personally, I support this claim, just like I'd say that the heavyweight who emerges from the Strikeforce tourney can make the same claim. But a clear #1 heavyweight will never be established until SF and the UFC set up a fight between their respective champions.
Who does everyone have at #1 right now? Fedor still has the best record, so could be #1 on that basis; Werdum beat him, so is #1 on the linear model; either Overeem or Cain, in my opinion, appears to be "the best fighter".
If Werdum, Fedor or Overeem win the tournament they would be a clear #1 to me.
I agree.
eliwoo - Even if the someone from the weaker half won, they would have still beaten the clear #1 from the stronger half. That makes them #1 in my book.
Good point though if JDS goes on to beat say Carwin in Cain in the timeframe that Karitonov goes on to beat say Arlovski, Rogers and Bigfoot, I don't know if that's the right call. I think it would depend a lot on how the wins happen for those guys.
orcus - Who does everyone have at #1 right now? Fedor still has the best record, so could be #1 on that basis; Werdum beat him, so is #1 on the linear model; either Overeem or Cain, in my opinion, appears to be "the best fighter".If Werdum, Fedor or Overeem win the tournament they would be a clear #1 to me.
I agree.
yes
ufc98newb -eliwoo - Even if the someone from the weaker half won, they would have still beaten the clear #1 from the stronger half. That makes them #1 in my book.
Good point though if JDS goes on to beat say Carwin in Cain in the timeframe that Karitonov goes on to beat say Arlovski, Rogers and Bigfoot, I don't know if that's the right call. I think it would depend a lot on how the wins happen for those guys.
In that case, the only thing that would be certain is this place will become insufferable.
Dana should have thought of it first. The fact that it is mapped out is more interesting than the UFC making it up as it goes along.
Even if you call it a gimmick, it has generated more interest.
That's why I've said that I still wouldn't consider most number 1 if they won. But if Overeem, Werdum or Fedor win, I think they are the clear number 1, especially considering their bracket is most competitive. Not to say the other winners wouldn't be top 2 or 3, but wins over the guys you mentioned (Rogers, Arlovski etc) and then beating 1 top guy doesn't make you number 1.
The UFC has an undefeated heavyweight champion right now.
He's #1 in the world, and would win that tournament if entered.
its a tournement and the best one since the Pride Grand Prix and better than anything UFC has come up with
Darth BLAF - How the hell does Werdum winning this solidify him as a clear #1 if you don't already have him as #1?
because the three wins in the tournament would double the volume of his high quality wins. People are reluctant to give him #1 now because his biggest wins are against Overeem before he was Uber and Fedor at a time when people were already starting to question if he was still in his peak, and then theres the idea that maybe the Fedor win was a fluke. I'm not saying it was, but it's an idea. If he goes on to beat those guys again and gets a win against a guy like Barnett, it answers a lot of questions about the legitimacy of what he's done.
Forrestfan, nobody is really calling it anything but a tournament in this thread. Everyone is focusing on the fights and the fighters which is what really matters.
To an extent, and I'm glad the fights and rankings are being discussed a little more level-headedly than on many others.
Still, the "tournament" label is also under discussion. As I've said, the Fedor/Bigfoot and Alistair/Werdum fights were already set up or close to it with the winners scheduled to fight. Basic title fight stuff there. So the only thing the tournament changes is to clearly state that the guys on the right side of the bracket have to win two fights to get a title shot. And my point is that I think the tournament label is giving more weight to those wins, and the ensuing title shot, then otherwise would be given; as though by making it to the "finals" they actually did prove to be "better" than the guys on the left side that didn't, more than would be given if they had merely "earned a title shot" (by winning the exact same fights).
Werdum is f'd...he was losing the standup in the Bigfoot and Kyle fights..
Overeem will not follow him to the ground.
However if reem smashed werdum, then smashed fedor, then smashed barnett, all while cain has been inactive, then hes the no1 hw on the planet without a doubt.
Alistair would be the most definite in my opinion. He is arguably the best in the world on paper -- size, strength, speed, K-1 champion standup, strong takedowns, good subs -- and beating several of these guys would prove that he can actually put it together in the ring against high level competition.
Most of those guys, though -- for me, it's kind of a case of yesterday's top guys beating other top guys from yesterday, with few of them being -- or having wins over -- guys who are in their prime and looking dangerous NOW.
Reem has probably the hardest path if it all goes to plan,
Again, you're giving too much weight to the "tournament" label.
Overeem is rightfully defending his title against Werdum. Then he is rightfully defending his title against the winner of Fedor/Bigfoot. These are the ONLY matchups that make sense for the champ. Then, down the line, after one of them has managed to put a few wins together in Strikeforce, he will defend against one of Barnett/Kharitonov/Arlovski.
This is only as it should be -- the champ should always fight the most deserving contender. This is not how it is in real "tournaments", in which the brackets are either random or the best guys are seeded to fight the worst initially, or the champ doesn't participate at all.
This is also why saying a guy on the right "won the most stacked HW tournament in history" gives his possible eventual win far more weight, due to perception, than simply saying what is more plain fact: That he won two fights over solid, though not dazzling, competition and then got a title shot because everyone else in the org had already had one or had lost too recently.
Same goes for the left: Clearing out the left bracket, for Werdum, means only that he beat three guys he has ALREADY beaten (two of them in his LAST TWO FIGHTS); one of those fights is for the title and the other is his first title defense; and if he then later defends against one of the other guys, it just doesn't have the same ring, and probably would not be given the same weight in fans' minds, as saying he "won this amazingly stacked HW tournament".
I think no matter what there will never be a clear number one fighter unless the two champs fight. Only way I can make a case for anyone to be number one is if jds beats Cain and carwin and werdum wins the strikeforce tournament. If that happens jds has to be clear cut #1 heavyweight. 
Strikeforce already owns #1-#3 in my humble opinion, so.........
I'd like to see Barnett vs. Cain for #4.