If Penn loses.......

Underground
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It's really galling for fans of one guy that was notoriously lax wrt training to criticize another fighter for that same flaw.

I don't think I criticized BJ for anything.  You wouldn't be conflating two different opinions from two different people would you?

I said he had poor sub defense. Making the same mistake two and a half years later and getting caught in a different sub isn't something to brag about.

Was somebody bragging?  And what sub did Matt "get caught in" again?  I don't remember him tapping out to BJ in the second fight.

It's obvious that fighters like Hallman, Charuto, and Penn give matt trouble; sub defense is a weakness in his game.

I couldn't agree more.  Hughes and guys who've wrestled since they were 4 have obvious habits that are hard to break even with years of training to do so.  What you are saying, really, is that some of the best submission guys in the world give Hughes trouble on the ground.  You got me!

Why is that better than having conditioning being a weak point?

As I said above, habits formed from years of being in a different sport are hard to break.  Conditioning is the one thing a fighter - hell, an athlete - has the sole responsibility to control.

The two rounds weren't even at all. Not 10-8, but nobody claims matt won either

They were very even, IMO.  Replace Hughes with a no-name in those rounds and BJ may not win both rounds.  Because it's Hughes, most fans are biased in thinking he should get that takedown.  A judge should take all past experience of a fighter out of the equation and focus only on what is happening at that moment.  Name and reputation shouldn't apply.

And why were mfs trolls claming that matt overlooked bj after the first fight?

I don't think that's too hard to believe, is it?  Hughes himself said that he was disrespected by a 155lber coming up in weight to fight him.  To believe Hughes didn't expect BJ to be a huge challenge for him isn't far fetched.  I think we all know different now, though, don't we?  Matt included, I'm sure.  I certainly don't think overlooking somebody is an excuse for a loss.

I thought, "Once the door closes all that matters is what happens until the door opens again."

Again, I said that.  I don't consider myself an "MFS troll", so don't take my statement and lump it in with others from other people.

 

63

"Making the same mistake two and a half years later and getting caught in a different sub isn't something to brag about."

Really, which sub was he caught in in the second fight? Because I remember him winning.

"sub defense is a weakness in his game. Why is that better than having conditioning being a weak point?"

Hughes being subbed three times in 46 fights versus Penn starting strong and then fading in probably a third (at least) of his 15 fights. 41-5 vs 10-4. Obviously one of those weaknesses isn't quite as bad as the other.

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I haven't read all the posts on this (FRAT), but Penn could lose 10x in a row and I'd still watch him b/c he has amazing skills and brings the fight every time out.

That's what I'm looking for...

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Penn won both the ground and standup game, clearly, in Round 1 and 2 in his 2nd fight with Hughes.

Maybe he got hurt, but starting right away in Rd 3, he got tooled on the feet and ground, and Hughes got the stoppage.

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And considering that about two minutes later bj could barely walk, I think it's fair to say that a healthy bj would have tapped him.

I don't think it's fair to say BJ would have tapped him.  I'll give you a definite maybe on that one.

More than anything I have a problem with ug myths like this. At times both fighters could have trained harder, yet one is crucified for it and the other is rarely held to the same standard. They are at different points in their careers: Matt learned he needed to train harder and it looks like that bj learned the same lession. The widespread claim that bj is too lazy to be a champ is just stupid.

Although I don't subscribe to the "BJ is lazy" line of thought, I think a lot of the "myth" of this statement would go away if & when BJ wins & defends a title multiple times.  We haven't seen that happen to this point, which is probably why most fans claim BJ as lazy and Matt as not.  Hell, in this very thread a BJ fan said "if BJ had Hughes' conditioning"...doesn't that tell us that BJ has flashed the skills of a potential great champion but failed to actually do it?  I do believe it's a fair criticism in that regard.

Then your opinion is wrong. Effective stiking, effective defense, octagon control all went to bj. When a fighter fails to get a takedown and his opponent lands stikes while defending the td, effective defense and octagon control go to his opponent. Bj won every catagory that is a criterion for scoring. It was not close. The second round he swept, got back control and landed more effective strikes then hughes. He won easily.

Effective defense is a criteria?  Perhaps Floyd Mayweather could beat Sherk, then.  But I digress...I simply think that both rounds were much closer than you do.  The standup went slightly to BJ, IMO.  Matt landed some nice shots as well.  And BJ was able to sprawl effectively.  Round 2, Hughes was in control for almost the entirety.  But BJ had the sub attempts.  Wouldn't Hughes win the "Effective Defense" on those since BJ wasn't able to finish with them?

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What amazes me is the continuous denial of BJ's injury. It was confirmed by the UFC and their doctors as well. About Hughes and his incredible prowess as the cause of BJ's injury....sry...it is a very common injury in Sub Grappling and can happen to a 200lb BB by a 140 pound WB. The cause of the injury is more commonly due to the torque created by the injured person themselves not the power or athletic ability of one's opponent. Nice theories though!!

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well this thread didn't turn out like I wanted it to. But it did go like I expected it to. This thread was supposed to be about Bj Penn and peoples opinions about what should happen to him if he looses.

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Don't worry, he won't lose.

I like Jens alot and he's still a great fighter, but BJ is on the verge of winning belts in at least 2 weight classes.

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"He dominated Hughes, until he gassed."

Sure looks a lot like ignoring the facts. The fact that BJ looked less fatigued at the ending of round two then the beginning of three does lead a sane person to believe he was hurt and not "gassed".

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I agree that getting BJ Penn's fanboys into a stir is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

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"Haynmatman, you're not ignoring facts, you're making them up as you go."

I'm making up the fact that he tore his cartilage in his rib? Oh O.K....It is you Mr. White who is making up facts like..the fight was even up till Matt dominating him in the third. That my friend is delusional. UFC and it's doctors are making up facts too I suppose.

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"Don't know why, but I find that absolutely hilarious. lol"

You must be easily amused for I fail to see anything "hilarious" about my statement at all. Nice futile try at deflection though.

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guess it doesn't matter now. BJ won. Congrats BJ. Jens is still my favorite fighter.