All the controversy of Matt and Tony got me thinking, could Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch meet the same standards applied to Matt and Tony? I would argue no.
Consider, how was competative CACC ability ever measured in a honest way in the last 70 years? Does anone really believe Karl and Lou never laid down and let themselves be pinned for a buck? This being so, how is/was "the best" determined?
Doesn't worked matches call into question the validity of rankings? Seems to me the guy that lives the longest and gets his story/perspective adopted determines the "truth."
I look forward to competition to determine the best!
I don't think people are arguing if Furey is legit, but whether his material is good, and if his submission knowledge is sub par.
Tony's skills seem pretty good but did he actually learn from who he said he did.
IMO, it doesn't matter, I'm never going to order anything from either and am probably never going to me or talk to either. But most of the people who have started there own catch schools have learned from books and movies. Hell even Hatmaker has and he's considered the cream of the crop.
In the end who cares. I just hope that if I ever get good at it and try and make some material people wont pick apart my life's story to know whether it's good or not. It shouldn't matter who I learned from or for how long I learned it for, only that it's quality stuff.
I don't see how Dan Gable could teach Catch at all. He can teach you American Folkstyle Wrestling very well, but so can hundreds if not thousands of others in the U.S.
both men were Pro-wrestlers that knew Catch as catch can.
both men from i Know apart from there Little Shoot/work match never had a shoot with anyother Catchwrestler . In the Gym Karl like everyone else has rolled same as Lou.
I think it was partly because of Ego and Risk or looseing that kep Karl away from shooting with anyother shooter.
Lou on the other hand Pretty much sums it up for him he is a Money Man like "Toots" was Great wrestler...but was all about a buck.
Lou thesz had to be good, just judging by the nature of the old NWA. The NWA did have sevral territories at one time, even the Von erich's old Texas promotion was a part of it at one time. Thesz had to know how to shoot just in case one of the local wrestlers (and probably the ref) didn't go by the scripted finish. He had to be wary of the double cross, ala Hart-HBK. I've read that's specifically why he got the belt so many times. and it does make some sense.
"Lou thesz had to be good, just judging by the nature of the old NWA. The NWA did have sevral territories at one time, even the Von erich's old Texas promotion was a part of it at one time. Thesz had to know how to shoot just in case one of the local wrestlers (and probably the ref) didn't go by the scripted finish. He had to be wary of the double cross, ala Hart-HBK. I've read that's specifically why he got the belt so many times. and it does make some sense."
No doubt about it Lou did have skills i would hope so if he was trained by the likes of Ed "the Strangler" Lewis,Ad Santel. Again when it came to Pro-wrestling Lou did not have a problem Putting a guy over if the money was right.
Karl on the other hand was more about Real Wrestling he felt if the guy could not take the belt away from him ( in a shoot match) then he should not be champion. Nothing wrong with this mindset Karl will always be a shooter at heart... but in the long run it hurt Karl in Pro-wrestling Karl's Ego is what stoped him from makeing a LOT OF MONEY Lou said he tryed to talk Karl into this mindset but he would not have any of it.
Man I wish Gotch and Thesz could have just rolled for 15 minutes. That would have answered a lot of questions that keep popping up about those two. For my money, I'd take Lou Thesz, but that's just my opinion. Who can say?
"Man I wish Gotch and Thesz could have just rolled for 15 minutes. "
it's been done to death..or if you like this horse has been beat to death.
They had a Work match that turned shoot Gotch got behind Lou went for a suplex Thesz blocked ,something happend and Karl ended up breaking Lou's ribs. In a scramble Lou gets Karl to the mat "thinking" Karl is trying to "shoot" on him and Lou submits Karl with a TWL.
Now some people Write it off as a Work match besides the fact Lou said Karl tryed to shoot on him. Keep in Mind Lou's finshing Hold is the STF or the Powerbomb Lou has NEVER SUBMITED ANYONE WITH TWL a Hook or one of the Hooks Lou uses when he feels you are trying to hurt him.
Those who support Karl say it was nothing but a work match and i quote Lou Thesz when he Hooked Karl "I
MADE'EM HOWL"
I respect Gene Lebelle and wicks Opinion on who was the better of the two but the event that happend between Karl and Lou is Set in STONE as a work gone shoot.
I believe Lou suplexed Karl. Karl countered with a swim through.
Imagine you are being belly to backed, as he starts lifting you swing say your right arm over his head as you twist your torso to face him as much as possible. You will land in almost a crossbody position. This can break ribs. In this case it did break ribs.
That was Lou's account of how it happened. As I understand it Lou would sometimes teach or explain the move along with the story of it happening to him.
Geeez, lou thez or karl gotch would have spanked dan gable. ( stu hart would gave been the guy to learn from) which one of his wrestlers could be suzuki ,funaki,or fugiwara?I was told that stu was not to good of a shooter.He didn't train dynamite kid,that was the snake pits doing.
"lou thez or karl gotch would have spanked dan gable"
I have to disagree,considering Dan Gable is quite possibly one of the greatest amatuer wrestlers of ALL time, i doubt anyone would just spank him.I not saying he would win but spank...i think not.He was as dedicated to training as ANY wrestler has ever been.Dan Gable IS legit,no controversy there.
Jason
First of all, Stu was an Olympic-caliber wrestler. Second, and I know it's fun, but comparing wrestlers from different periods usually results in a stalemate b/c of the evolution of wrestling. Stu was born in 1915; Dan in 1948. That's a big age difference, not to mention differences in their wrestling game. To my knowledge, Dan never learned any hooks. Kurt Angle won the Gold Medal in 1996. He started training for the 2004 Olympic games, I think in 2002. One wrestler he rolled with noted Kurt employed at least one move that he hadn't seen in years. Basically, in matter of a few short years, Kurt's wrestling game was already outdated. Stu was a great shooter and, yes, he did train Dynamite Kid. Yes, Dynamite kid learned elsewhere -- so did guys like his son, Bret.
Does Dan Gable have instructionals that would be useful for CACC/sub grappling (as opposed to just the amateur game)? That question makes it sounds like I don't see a link between being a good wrestler and winning in CACC, which isn't true: I just want to know if he has an instructional that has enough value given that I don't compete under amateur rules.
Dan Gable is made of the same stuff the Greeks wrote storys about. Dan's every move on the mat is Godlike.
Not only that after Dan won Olympic Gold he began working out the next day Someone asked Dan what he was doing he said "getting ready for the next Olympics" Jesus H Christ Dan they are held every Four years!