I don't know man, Bruce Wayne was trained by the League of Shadows. You can't front on that.
I'd take Danny Hodge over Dan Gable any of the day week. He was the first collegiate ahtlete to go undefeated, even before Sanderson; freshman year didn't count in those days. Danny Hodge was never taken off his feat in collegiate competition -- you can't say that about too many wrestlers in the history of the NCAA.
LOL @ "feat".
dudes, must we try to pick apart everyone involved with catch?
Lou Thesz - Trained in amateur wrestling as a teenager with legendary shooter Ad Santel and made his professional wrestling debut in 1932 at the age of 16. He soon met Ed Lewis, the biggest wrestling star of the 1920s, who taught a young Thesz the art of hooking (the ability to stretch your opponent with painful holds).
The dude had skills.
Karl Gotch - Participated in amateur wresting, and competed in the 1948 Olympics for Belgium, in both freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling. His professional wrestling career began when he became student at the "Snake Pit" started by catch wrestler Billy Riley. Gotch also taught catch wrestling to other wrestlers beside Inoki, including Tatsumi Fujinami, Hiro Matsuda, Osamu Kido, Satoru Sayama, and Yoshiaki Fujiwara.
The dude had skills.
Can we put we this rest? and Spiderman would beat beat Batman.
Actually I believe the order of events was more like Thesz first trained under George Tragos, then Ray Steele and then Ad Santel. He didn't do too much training under Lewis. He said that most of what he learned from Lewis had to do with the business angle.
No way Batman beats Spiderman, even if he has Robin with him.
I could beat IRONMAN ,out of that suit id say he's a pus
"I also get the impression Dan Gable could teach catch better than any of the guys idolised on this forum."
It depends on which style your talking about- amateur catch or pro. Amateur yes, pro no. I don't think you'll find him teaching a double wristlock. Let me reinterate...I did not say that Dan Gable was not one of the greatest wrestlers of all time, but I don't think you'll find him teaching old time carnival hooks.
"Lou thesz had to be good, just judging by the nature of the old NWA. The NWA did have sevral territories at one time, even the Von erich's old Texas promotion was a part of it at one time. Thesz had to know how to shoot just in case one of the local wrestlers (and probably the ref) didn't go by the scripted finish."
There was little chance of that happening. a fine wrestler named Ray Villmer was typically used as Thesz's policeman before any chance of that could arise (Ray Steele was around earlier as well). Another factor to consider is that wrestling was already well controlled by the promoters by that time and any wrestler who went against the program would have been fired or taught a severe lesson. It's kayfabe to think that incident's like the above mentioned statement happened all the time. A promoter is not going to allow his money making champion to be put in positions like that, especially when he is making money.
"I don't see anyone spanking him. (Gable)"
I don't see anyone spanking him either. but he was beaten by an amateur using a strategy concieved by Dick Cardinal...I think that's really neat (and something you really don't hear about).
"There was little chance of that happening. a fine wrestler named Ray Villmer was typically used as Thesz's policeman before any chance of that could arise (Ray Steele was around earlier as well). Another factor to consider is that wrestling was already well controlled by the promoters by that time and any wrestler who went against the program would have been fired or taught a severe lesson. It's kayfabe to think that incident's like the above mentioned statement happened all the time. A promoter is not going to allow his money making champion to be put in positions like that, especially when he is making money."
"In January 1963, NWA promoters wanted to get the title off NWA world champion Buddy Rogers, but they feared he would be uncooperative in the ting. So they asked Thesz, 46 at the time, to come out of semi-retirement and defeat Rogers for the title, knowing that Rogers wouldn't dare double-cross Thesz."
-- http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCO/is_2_4/ai_88761528/pg_1
Are you saying that the fear of a double cross was just a myth, that promoters weren't really scared of it? It wasn't uncommon for promoters to put up an insurance policy in a title match, in case of a double cross. The way you make it sound, it's like the promoters had all the control and the shooter and hooker champions who drew money had absolutely no wiggle room.
"It's kayfabe to think that incident's like the above mentioned statement happened all the time."
-Notice I didn't say never, I said "all the time" meaning it was not a regular occurance.
Gotcha, Drew. Then we're on the same page :)
I'd like to hear more about the Gotch/Thesz match. Is there a consenus out there who believes it was a worked shoot or is it universally believed that the match turned into a shoot?
"Are you saying that the fear of a double cross was just a myth, that promoters weren't really scared of it? It wasn't uncommon for promoters to put up an insurance policy in a title match, in case of a double cross. The way you make it sound, it's like the promoters had all the control and the shooter and hooker champions who drew money had absolutely no wiggle room."
Thesz said to Rogers "we can do this the easy way or the hard way" I assume Lou ment I can take your belt in a work match but if you wanna be an ass about it i can just Take it from you in a Shoot and make you look bad.
(side note I find it kind of Odd Buddy Rogers was in fear of Karl and Lou Shooting on him in a Match Buddy Himself was trained by old timer Fred Grubmeyer I would think he would also know how to carry himself in the Ring if needed be)
"I'd like to hear more about the Gotch/Thesz match. Is there a consenus out there who believes it was a worked shoot or is it universally believed that the match turned into a shoot?"
I would never call Thesz a Liar (God rest his soul) but on his old chat fourm thesz used to post and on the subject he said Karl was trying to be "cute" and paid the price for it. Thesz Respected Karl for his skill and he wanted Karl to Go to the top but as everyone knows Karl is a hard man to get along with and tends to do things His way than whats good for the group.
Lou said he was Pissed at himself because he trused Karl not to shoot on him he let his guard down. Thesz Got Karl that time shurgs everyone takes an L as some point in time. Now this is not to say Thesz is better keep in mind both men did not begin the match as a shoot so to be fair... who knows who would have won in a Real shoot.
Lou did say Karl knew more hooks than him BUT lou also said he knew enough wrestling to counter OR better karl in a match.
(side note I find it kind of Odd Buddy Rogers was in fear of Karl and Lou Shooting on him in a Match Buddy Himself was trained by old timer Fred Grubmeyer I would think he would also know how to carry himself in the Ring if needed be)
It was my understanding that Rogers was a performer...period. Just because one is shown a hold by an old timer does not make one a submission wrestler.
With all this continual, unending bickering about thesz and gotch or cecchine and furey, I just wonder when any of you find time to wrestle.
"With all this continual, unending bickering about thesz and gotch or cecchine and furey, I just wonder when any of you find time to wrestle."
every thursday,friday,saturday on my lunch break one hour of wrestling
"I would never call Thesz a Liar (God rest his soul) but on his old chat fourm thesz used to post and on the subject he said Karl was trying to be "cute" and paid the price for it. Thesz Respected Karl for his skill and he wanted Karl to Go to the top but as everyone knows Karl is a hard man to get along with and tends to do things His way than whats good for the group.
Lou said he was Pissed at himself because he trused Karl not to shoot on him he let his guard down. Thesz Got Karl that time shurgs everyone takes an L as some point in time. Now this is not to say Thesz is better keep in mind both men did not begin the match as a shoot so to be fair... who knows who would have won in a Real shoot.
Lou did say Karl knew more hooks than him BUT lou also said he knew enough wrestling to counter OR better karl in a match."
Yea, I read some of it on the wrestlingclassics board. Lou did injure his ribs, as a result, so either it was an accident on Karl's part or Karl -- for some reason -- turned the match into a shoot purposely. If it's the latter, the question is why?
I'm not so much concerned with who was better. I'm more fascinated by the match in question turning into a shoot and for what reasons.
"I'm not so much concerned with who was better. I'm more fascinated by the match in question turning into a shoot and for what reasons."
Kicks the dead horse again Hell it could be a lot of Reasons.. Maybe Karl wanted to see what Lou was made of.
Maybe both men was just haveing fun and it got out of hand WHO knows..Before the Era of Vince McMahon (Remember reading somewhere Vince Passed a law in his Org of Wrestling about doing shoots without his say so) Shoots happend People like Karl and Thesz had since of "humor" of makeing Gimick Wrestlers Look bad.
There was a lot of titles in that time and a lot of promoters Wrestlers with skill wanted there Push be it by promoter or by there OWN will. Like i said Lots of Reasons who knows?
But what i would like to know where the Hell was all the "Police Men" in those days?
"But what i would like to know where the Hell was all the "Police Men" in those days?"
-Lurking in the shadows with that damn sasquatch...
Mark of the wolf (awesome SN by the way):
Yea, you make a great point. I suppose you're right. That's pretty interesting, that Lou admitted to knowing less holds than Karl. Karl was an olympic-caliber amateur wrestler, while Lou, to my knowledge, never proved himself among the world's best amatuer wrestlers in an international competition like the Olympic games. Sure, it's possible Lou could've faired quite fantasicly in catch contests with olympic-caliber shooters, but I question if Lou's amateur wrestling skills (that is, minus hooks) were on par with the very best the (Olympic) world had to offer in his era, supposing the match was under folk- or freestyle rules.