"Hey Folks, first timer on this BB - just want to say that my dad (Billy Robinson) and Mad Dog Maurice Vachon were inducted last weekend into the International Wrestling Hall of Fame in Newton, Iowa. Mike Chapman asked my dad a lot of questions about Karl Gotch, and of course, Karl was trained at Wigan about 8-10 years before my dad by the likes of Billy Joice (real name Joe Robinson - no relation to my dad), Billy Riley, and Bob Robinson (Joe's brother). My dad and Karl spent a lot of time together, especially later over in Japan. Karl worked with Inoki, and dad worked with Giant Baba.
Anyway........Dad has the utmost respect for Karl - said that in his prime (about 37-40), Karl was as dangerous as any catch wrestler ever.
Basically said that the folks at Wigan did NOT teach you how to wrestle by learning moves - they taught you how to LEARN how to wrestle - something that made those wrestlers continue to learn every dayand get better. Karl was far better 15 years after he left Wigan than on the day he left. He was given the gift, as was my father, to continue learning the art.
Dad was also highly respectful of Lou, and said pretty much the same about Lou's prowess. When pressed about who could beat who, my father balked - he noted that it was one of those things you never talked about. I guess the fact is that none of those wrestlers would have been at the top of their game had they not thought THEY were the best ever....get my drift? You had to have an ego, a big one to a certain degree, to be able to go into a ring and face off, otherwise you would be "man-beat" - afraid, in other words, and you would be beaten before you started. My dad said that the real key to winning a shoot was to know how to survive the first 15-20 minutes without getting hooked by someone more powerful. He said that Karl and Lou focused on conditioning so much because they both had the ability. Anyway, when pressed about Karl vs. Lou, he declined, but stated that in their primes, both would be among the most dangerous in the world. My dad also puts himself in the club..., and said that Billy Joyce was the best (in his mind). Also said Inoki was among the best in his prime too - because he learned from Karl. Sorry this post was so long"
"Yea, you make a great point. I suppose you're right. That's pretty interesting, that Lou admitted to knowing less holds than Karl. Karl was an olympic-caliber amateur wrestler, while Lou, to my knowledge, never proved himself among the world's best amatuer wrestlers in an international competition like the Olympic games. Sure, it's possible Lou could've faired quite fantasicly in catch contests with olympic-caliber shooters, but I question if Lou's amateur wrestling skills (that is, minus hooks) were on par with the very best the (Olympic) world had to offer in his era, supposing the match was under folk- or freestyle rules."
Yeah a Prime example of this would be John Pesek and Nat Pen..Forgive me his last name i forgot but Nat won silver in the olympics and when at it with Pesek Under catch as catch can rules (not very smart of him) and got Raped pretty badly.
as far as Karl knowing more Hooks than Lou..it's like Bjj and Judo..i guess i hope thats a good example..maybe not? Karl's background was Wigan Lancashire syle of Hook lots of submission holds to dazzle one who is looking.
Lou's is more Rough and Get'em style of Catch (under Ed Lewis) focus more on Wrestling the man down Rip'em and Hook'em I would say i think thats what Lou ment when he said Karl knows more hooks than him...BUT he knew enough wrestling to counter or better Karl on the mat.
"Karl's background was Wigan Lancashire syle of Hook lots of submission holds to dazzle one who is looking."
Are you saying that Karl knew a lot of holds that you'd never apply in a real fight, not unlike Stu hart applying "show" holds in his Dungeon?
Coincidently, I was discussing something with Bryan Alveraz (and Meltzer) about Stu Hart and it related to the above. Here's what Bryan had to say:
"I have several technique books by guys from way back in the day, including one from the 20s by Earl Liederman. They consist of a very small number of effective holds (kimuras and such and rear naked chokes) and 95% completely absurd holds which would hurt if you applied them, but which you could never in a million years actually put on someone in a real fight UNLESS THEY ALLOWED YOU TO. Hence the Stu Hart stuff."
What you agree with the above or disagree? I'm somewhat puzzled by his statements.
I also talked to Dave about some of the above and he had a lot of interesting things to say.
"That's pretty interesting, that Lou admitted to knowing less holds than Karl."
Lou used the double wristlock, stepover toehold, and a couple of neck cranks. He really only used 6 holds that he knew inside and out.
It is not necessary to know 100's of holds. Know 3-6 and know them inside and out, better than knowing 100 holds half-ass. Much like billy wicks, my holds are double wristlocks, neck cranks, and toeholds...all done from several different angles/positions. That's how the carnies did it.
If gable had stepped on the nat with gotch or thez it would have been nasty.Either of them could slap wrist lock on in just a few seconds .Gable would get hooked for sure.Imho
Hmm, enlightening. See, Bryan pretty much said there were few holds, very basic holds, that the wrestlers of the day put people in who had no clue. Wladek took Helio to a draw (may have been a work, I have no clue) and Santel tested some of Kano's best judoka. So, if the great catch wrestlers of the day knew only a few holds, then I'm guessing it was not unlike today's fighting, where you have your "bread and butter" techniques. And like today, it's not the style, but the man behind the style. For some reason, I had always thought a list of hooks a Thesz or Gotch knew could fill a large book. This is not the case, then.
Don't misunderstand me,
Lou knew alot, karl knew alot. I'm not saying it is not important be familiar a wide variety of holds, I'm saying that they mainly stuck to a few holds that were bread and butter (facelocks, toeholds, double wristlocks, etc.) most of the time. the reason being that those holds were effective and easy to get from the positions found in wrestling. Lou had mark fleming drill the double wristlock and step over toehold thousands of times...really no other submissions. Karl likes toeholds, the double wristlock, and the crooked headscissors. Billy wicks like the double wristlock, front facelock, and ball and chain toehold. Pesek liked the double wristlock (often combined with fig 4. headscissor), and toeholds. My meaning was that every one had their preference and that everyone had a few holds that they really stuck to (even though they certainly had a knowledge of other holds). Hope that helps.
"So, if the great catch wrestlers of the day knew only a few holds, then I'm guessing it was not unlike today's fighting, where you have your "bread and butter" techniques. And like today, it's not the style, but the man behind the style. For some reason, I had always thought a list of hooks a Thesz or Gotch knew could fill a large book. This is not the case, then."
well Look at Earl Caddock A.K.A " The Man of a Thousand Holds" (also Insainely Undreated Catchwrestler) Burns Crew said Earl Knew every hold but only used the Head Scissors to win most of his Matches again Bread and butter holds work better than trying to submit a guy with every hold you learned in your years of grappling.
Seal, I'm 150% sure Lou and Karl know a dictionary book of Hooks by if you have a sure fire hold why risk it with a hold you use sometime than a Hold you use all the time. Catch me Driff?
Out of the Whole Shooto arm flow Shoulder lock, Chicken wing arm lock,twist arm lock,wrist lock,straight arm lock, V-1 arm lock, Pillow arm lock one and two, arm triangle 1-2 Kesa, guillotine Neck lock, leg straight arm lock, V cross arm lock, Telephone arm lock, CW arm lock 2 Clock head scissors, cross arm hold, cross arm lock, reverse arm hold,Reverse arm wrist, reverse arm chicken Out of all these Arm locks i know and all the crap i just typed i only use 3 out 22 Hooks ive listed
Seal i think someone once said i would Rather have 10 holds i can use than a 100 holds to confuse me.
I've hung out with Erik Paulson, and we all know he knows ALOT of holds like a dictionary, but Karl Gotch is like a whole encyclopedia of holds. I am not joking when I say I have tried my best to find something the guy doesn't know about. It is not an exaggeration to say that he literally has forgotten more about submissions than most people know.
I guess it is from training with all different styles of people over the years. He notes Sambo as one of his favorites and has extensive experience training with Judo and jiujitsu guys and not to mention ameteur wrestling. He spent time in Turkey, Iran and the the US. He knows a few things for sure. On top of that he was a conditioning freak.
For example, if you liked the Fujiwara/Cardinal seminar DVD (as I did) then when I showed it to Karl he completely picked it apart. He said always look for mistakes and errors, don't dwell on what is done correctly. That day was my most eye opening day with Karl. To have him show me improvements on what these two phenomenal wrestlers were showing. I never looked at it that way. I always try to now.
Anyway, my point is, there shouldn't even be a discussion of the validity of Karl's knowledge. He was a freak of nature. Way ahead of his time.
To be called a "Kami" in Japanese culture is a very very very serious thing, especially if you are a non-Japanese.
I have to say something regarding Stu and "sho" holds:
Stu knew a lot of submissions, but he was an old guy and not to mobile by the time guys like Benoit and Jericho even his kids were being trained. He couldn't wrestle live with them and thus we only know about him showing moves on non resistive opponents.
I read a story, I think it was by Bad News Brown (Allen Coage). It was about the people that went to the dungeon, you had wise guys and pretty boys, atheletes, and wrestlers. He would stretch the hell out of the wise guys and pretty boys, they would never come back after that. When he didn't like an athelete he would do the same. But no matter how good or bad a wrestler you were (or Judoka like Coage) Stu would hold you in high esteem. Later on in his life if would be more a privelage if he would stretch you.
Anyways, he knew his stuff and I'm sure he could had trained people to be great shooters. Did he hook people who weren't resisting? Yes, could he hook a resisting opponent I'm sure he could had. Could he teach people to comepete with the likes of Wicks or Cardinal? No, but he could probably teach people to be as good as those taught by Gotch and or Thesz.
the problem with stu was that he would ask to put you in a hold and then never let you go...or he'd sneak up behind you and drag you into one. Luther Lindsey damn near killed him for being cute. Both Pops and Dick Cardinal told me that he was never considered to be at the top of the heap by any of the pros of the era. Now, that's not to say that I wouldn't like to see what he had to offer, anyone who was around Bob Cummings should surely know something.
The interview with meltzer wouldn't download for me, please can someone summarize.
There is an interview with the Iron Sheik around somewhere, where he talks about his time in Stampede. As the Sheik tell it, IS didn't want to job to someone, and was "summoned" to the Dungeon. Stu told IS to give Stu his arm. IS refused, and told Stu to take it. IS then reportedly proceeded to stretch Stu in his own Dungeon. (However, at this time, Stu was already in his fifties). IS then left for the WWF.
I just know that luther told pops that stu tried to be cute and he stretched him. in regards to the iron sheik/billy robinson story...that occured at verne gagne's training camp and is recorded in ric flair's book. the iron sheik and flair were trained together for vern gagne's awa promotion. robinson was apparently one of the trainers. well robinson wanted to wrestle the sheik so he made the sheik get down and billy got behind him. for 15 minutes robinson tried to crank on/pin the shiek...he couldn't. so finally he kneed him in the hip to turn him over. apparently it really hurt the shiek's hip. flair said that robinson was an asshole.
It wasn't on this week's show, but Dave noted to me last week that Stu was never considered among the elite Hookers nor was he among the greatest shooters. Lance Storm pretty much said the same thing in an interview from a few days ago. He talked for 5 minutes about Stu and the Dungeon. If anyone wants the Lance interview, let me know. Because it was conducted on a paid site, I'd have to preface it with a plug