Kirik - ...to parse the opaque train of human interaction
nice
Modal Jazz - Greg Jackson needs to get some fans
this.
12SixElbow - Jackson has no loyalty, and it shows.
I think that pisses people off, its happened more than once.
Not to mention Jackson's gym has created how many champions?
Rashad.
Jones is new, and would have been champion nearly anywhere.
and this
BrockbackMountain - A lot of people think he abandoned the guys who made his camp like Rashad and Diego for "upcoming stars" like GSP and Jones.
Also he game plans dude to win, not to be exciting which pisses people off.
and then theres this
chawkins -A lot of people think he abandoned the guys who made his camp like Rashad and Diego for "upcoming stars" like GSP and Jones.
This is really the heart of the matter, IMO. The problem is not Jackson's coaching skills, the problem is that he appears to be opportunistic at the expense of his long-time fighters rather than being opportunistic on behalf of his long-time fighters.
That whole episode with Jackson bringing in GSP over Diego's objections when Diego was a contender at 170? Not a good look, not a good look at all. But only happening one time, that can be chalked up to a misunderstanding or some such.
To have that happen twice thought? No. At that point there's something uncool going on. Bringing in a hot young up-and-coming contender at Rashad's weight was a foul move, there's really no way to dispute that.
so many good posts about why jackson/winklejohn are forwned upon here. Is kirik reading all of this?
nobones -Yeah I'm kind of surprised by this Kirik as it is common sense. Seems more like damage control on your part.Kirik - Greg Jackson and Mike Winklejohn are the greatest coaches in the sport today. I don't know why they are bashed so regularly on the UG.You're oversimplifying things. Greg Jackson betrays his fighters when it is in his interest to do so. He did it to Diego and he did it to Rashad. He will do it again. Mike Winklejohn seems to be butting in because of a general dislike of Rashad since Rashad left him after the Machida fight. He's the one that rallied Greg to corner Jones not because it was 'good for the team' because the team doesn't give a shit. He wanted Greg in Jones corner to help Jones win which in turn allows him to exact vengeance on Rashad for firing him and talking bad about the team after leaving. The only thing that Rashad probably shouldn't have done was get so whiny about the whole thing, but in the end he was wronged and Greg and Winklejohn and Jones refuse to admit that Rashad was wrong and what Jones did was wrong. Greg tries to (in public anyways) put all the blame on himself and repeat 'the proper protocols weren't in place' which is baloney. It's like he is claiming stupidity or ignorance and not calculated betrayal which is what all of this was. That's why Jon Jones is hated so much, because this is so obvious and if you are on his twitter you know the kind of guy Jones is always seeking approval and wanting people to tell him he's doing everything right and does nothing wrong.
When UFC 1 debuted, we all wanted to learn BJJ from Rorion, which made him at the time the best (known) coach in MMA. Looking back the best coach at the time was probably Carlson Gracie, Sr., but there was no known back to look back to then.
Then Mark Coleman and Dan Severn proved that wrestling could trump all. There was no identifiable premier wrestling coach in MMA, which was good (long story), so everyone brushed off their HS and college wrestling.
Then Mo Smith knocked out Coleman, and the MMA Alliance team of coaches Smith and Frank Shamrock were tops.
Finally Pat Miletich established the blueprint for the sport that lasts up til today, and probably forever – to reach the top in MMA, you need skills adequate to hang with national class guys in wrestling, BJJ, and stand up.
Miletich Martial Arts produced 80+ television and PPV level fighters, 14 world titlists in various organizations, and five UFC world champions. Since that time, the sport has been blessed with some extraordinary coaches - Rudimar Fedrigo, Matt Hume, Ricardo Liborio, Greg Nelson/Erik Paulson, Andre Pederneiras, and many more. And atop every coach today is the team of Jackson/Winklejohn.
For reasons I don't understand, the pair, or more often Greg Jackson, come under fire on the UG. Jackson is both humble and great, a rare combination on this sport, or anywhere. Maybe people just hate success. I dunno.
The problems Jackson had with Rashad Evans are complex, and both parties have expressed a hope to move to more friendly ground. Rashad Evans is a man, and does not appear to need any coat holders in his disagreement.
I don't see why anyone would want to parse the opaque train of human interaction that led to their 'divorce' and jump in on one side of the other. Rashad Evans is a great fighter. Greg Jackson is a great trainer. They had a disagreement, and Rashad moved on.
They say there are three sides to every fight, one side the other side and the truth, but really there are four sides, with the last one being "I have better things to worry about than that fight, like whether my socks match."
Anyway, just wanted to get a sounding on how people think, and why there is so much Jackson bashing. Is it just that Dana has said Jackson fighters don't finish? I really don't get it.
haters gon hate.....
I can say with a high degree of certainty that most people posting hatefull dribble about Jackson have never met the guy or even watched him work with his fighters. He's a great guy, very humble, grounded, etc.
His gym has experienced a meteoric rise in success over the last 10 years so of course you are going to have some haters, that's understandable. But he gets results and that is undeniable, for every boring "point fighter" people complain about there is a Conduit, Garcia, Sanchez, Guida who are anything but boring.
Last point, regarding "homegrown talent". How much talent is there in the middle of New Mexico? It's not like we're talking about SOCAL, South Florida, or even Chicago or Dallas where you have a much larger population to draw from. There are tough guys in NM no doubt, but top level prospects are not popping up on every street corner in Albuquerque.
I love how, when one of Jackson's fighters goes to decision, it's all Jackson's fault. But when one of his fighters provide an exciting finish, Jackson's coaching had nothing to do with it.
Do you think Jones, Cerrone and Guillard are not listening to him?
irishrottie - Rashad drama aside...Jackson is made out to be a better coach than he is.
A guy like Cesar Gracie took in guys from their beginning and turned them into world champions.
Guys join the Jackson brand. Guys like Guillard, Arlovski, Carwin, Jon Jones and many many others.
Best coach in the game....hell no....owner of the gym with the most talent yes.
Didnt Carwin and Jones go with Jackson/WJ from very early on in their careers?
Same with Diego, Jardine, Rashad, Villesenor, if not from the beginning?
quick2tap - haters gon hate.....
most people posting hatefull dribble about Jackson have never met the guy
He's a great guy, very humble, grounded, etc.
Last point, regarding "homegrown talent". How much talent is there in the middle of New Mexico? It's not like we're talking about SOCAL, South Florida, or even Chicago or Dallas where you have a much larger population to draw from. There are tough guys in NM no doubt, but top level prospects are not popping up on every street corner in Albuquerque.
1. How "NICE" a person is in person, has nothing to do with moral character. I've given medical treatment to convicted murderes who were some of the most polite and courteous people in the world.
2. Home grown talent has nothing to do with where a fighter is from, and more to do with the coach bringing up a fighter from "no name" or ammy status to the big leagues. Fighters don't have to be from NM, its just that aside from Rashad, Jackson has brought no one up to Champion level or A level.
Wasa-B -
Didnt Carwin and Jones go with Jackson/WJ from very early on in their careers?
Same with Diego, Jardine, Rashad, Villesenor, if not from the beginning?
No.
Diego yes, but Jackson turned on him, and Saulo brought him to his title shot.
Jackson abandon him.
Its bascially because the UG is like a group of gossiping teenage bitches.
Gym/trainer splits are part of (the) sports. It is just magnified much higher when its with the most prolific gyms/trainers and fighters.
Mo success = mo problems with the TMZG
Strykr619 - All the hate about Jackson/Winklejohn is just the same rehashed crap said about Militech back in the day. WHEN YOUR ON TOP, EVERYONE HATES YOU.
I can concede that Jackson did do Diego dirty with the GSP situation, but the beef between Rashad and Jones on the other hands REEKS of envy by Rashad. If you refuse to fight a fellow "teammate" or gym partner whatever then you should move weight classes. This aint a team sport. Rashad you envy is obvious. Stop dude because in the end of the day it will be your downfall.
How is Jones / Evans any different than Diego / GSP.
They both asked Jackson NOT to bring the other guy in
Both times he did it anyway
Both times he abandon the guy who'd been with him for the new guy
with all due respect its because
1) he cheats (greasing gsp and diego and probably others)
2) he "games" the system and makes fighters boring
3) he is dishonest (rashad)
4) he doesnt seem to have a ton of actual mma technical knowledge, but hes viewed as a master trainer
is he good at what he does? sure, the numbers dont lie--hes produced champions, but you can separate respect for his accomplishments with how you view him as a human being
Agree with Kirik 100%.
Wasa-B - Its bascially because the UG is like a group of gossiping teenage bitches.
Naderhood -tommymorrisonfan - Being the best coach in mma is kind of like winning gold at the special Olympics.MOST PLAYED OUT QUOTE EVAR!
Sure you won. But at the end of the day, you're still retarded.
It didn't even make any sense in the context
Ran I wish.LOL
ttt
disbeliever - They are no doubt great coaches, and do get way too much shit from fans.
That said, some criticism is warranted imo
This.
They have been part of several fan-unfriendly instances in the UFC.
From the greasegate controvery, to the falling out of Diego and Rashad, to fans criticism of the Condit-Diaz fight (which i have defended countless times on the UG) to Clay Guida's emerging stall-to-a-decision-for-points strategy, to the UFC 151 debacle.
They are great coaches, but not without some deserved criticism on some issues.