dokomoy -
What difference does it make anyway if I pull guard and sweep you versus if I double leg you? Both end up with me forcing you to your back. When people roll(or compete for that mater) the goal is to control position and eventually secure a submission, and for many people the most efficient way of doing that is pulling guard.
dokomoy, I agree in many ways. One thing that we agree on is that a goal in BJJ is forcing someone to their back. Now, if you see that I have excellent takedowns (I don't) and decide that you will probably lose in standing, you will most likely pull guard and put yourself on your back - which is the end result of me taking you down. Now, if my goal in my takedown is to put you on your back, but and you save me the trouble and accomplish my goal for me, why is it scored differently?
As for the second part of this paragraph, it requires me to restate my original post with a little more thought. Previously I said "pulling guard is ridiculious." What I meant to say was "The rules regarding pulling guard are ridiculious." I don't want you guys to think I'm some wrestlepower type character on a direct IV of koolaid. I didn't always think that pulling guard without -2 points was stupid, I actually currently pull guard at least once a tournament. My open and half guard are some of my best weapons -better than my passing in fact. I just think the whole pulling guard rule creates a lot of stupid loopholes in the rules that don't make any logical sense and are not in synergy with the rest of the ruleset. On top of that, it indirectly creates one dimentional BJJ players with no takedowns. So just take a minute thinking over my arguments and don't immediatly dismiss them because they are different than the way things are.
dokomoy, you stated that the overall goal is to control position and then submit your opponent. If players are truly looking to accomplish this a -2 penalty for pulling guard would make no difference. If you are confident in submitting your opponent then points really don't matter.
There are a lot of cons to this pulling guard rule. However, I have yet to hear a single pro. I see a lot of people defending the pulling guard rule as the status quo, but are there any reasons why its
better than giving a -2 point penalty?
I got a whole heap of Mundial tapes from the 90's and they are boring as fuck.
i think we should go to tournaments that you can win by "advantage only." no points, no subs, only advantage.
Yeah, nothing has changed. Watch old Royler, Feitosa, or Daniel Moraes matches. I enjoy the matches to watch how to be super defensive and win on advantages, I think it's just part of the game and something that has always been around.
People always love to romanticize about the past, or about 'good solid basics' or how simple and blah blah, but it's all the same and it's just a game to play.
Nothing romanticized about it. Nothing to do with finishes(points vs. submission), either. Like was mentioned earlier, the game was more balanced in years past and that is what I enjoyed watching.
Every sport changes...most times for the worst. Judo, wrestling, boxing, etc. In judo, newaza was a lot more prevalent(and skillful) up until the 80s when the rules/refs allowed ~30 seconds of 'active' play before standing guys back up. That was the era of Kashiwazaki and it was an absolute pleasure to watch. Nowadays matches rarely end by ippon, so like bjj, it's often a points/advantages thing. Not as exciting, but you can't really blame people(who're trying to win/make money) because the talent pool is tough. Wrestling is no different. Once upon a time matches were 15+ minutes and there was a helluva lot of action standing, some really beautiful throws, and highly technical mat wrestling. Now? The matches are what, 5-6 minutes, and there's funky rules(re: the anti-Karelin clinch rule), and a preferance for tilts/turns in both freestyle/greco that all but eliminates technical mat wrestling that results in pins(finishes).
Basically, there are legitimate greivances people have who've been around since before TUF series started. But what are ya gonna do, boycott the sport and not train?
i hear ya, i was kinda embarrassed when i showed some mma fan friends the 2010 Worlds, they were like, "wtf is this gay shit" when showing people just goin for footlocks from 50/50 on each other for 10 minutes
Im sorry but the 50/50 guard is almost pointless without heelhooks, blackbelts should be allowed them to heel hook each other, they are BJJ experts for cryin out loud. It's dissapointing when you want to see the top level guys' skill on display but you can't because the whole time they are trying to get out of someone's 50/50.
For comparison to Judo, look at the 1981 Maastricht world championships and compare it to the recent Beijing Olympics. Night and day.
Muffinho - Ridgeback - BJJ with the gi was always boring to watch for all but a small group of bjj practitioners. No-gi is more interesting and there are plenty of interesting no-gi guys.
Personally I think tournaments should all be submission only. Fighting for advantage or points that lead to nowhere is pointless. <br type="_moz" />
Not plausible. Takes too long.
well you could have it submission only but make a time limit and if time runs out then you could judge it by who came closest to finishing or something
so if a guy tried like 20 half ass armbars just to have submission attempts counted, he would still lose to someone that came closer to straightening the arm just once. So it would work like mma or figure skating, even, it would be based on the opinion of a trained judge. also you could set up some way of judging joint locks vs chokes to see which was closer, it wouldnt be a simple cut and dry system but i think a system like this could be created to determine the better grappler for the match
HoldYerGround - Yeah but if I'm standing in my opponent's guard and then pull guard so he can get on top it counts as 2 points, despite the fact that he didn't actually sweep me. <span class="User-213542" id="userPost32712366">
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lol, when u pull guard on someone sitting on their ass that is called iniating the lesbian scissor sweep
i hate when we start rolling from the knees in open mat and i pull guard only to have the other guy try to pull guard at the same time, i just think "wtf? !?(o_O)!?"
Hell yes, I was nearly foaming at the mouth from the action!
If you want to show your buddies good Bjj matches that they will understand to resemble some sort of fighting, show them matches from Medio up. The lighter weight classes seem to be dominated by guard pulls and complicated leg entanglements, imo. (which I don't mind actually, it's interesting technically but doesn't look anything like a "martial art"). Not saying this doesn't happen at all in the higher weights, but it seems like it's a lot more common to see some good Judo throws, takedowns and standard positional games in Medio and up.