judo mcdojo?

I have started training at a judo place near where I live. I just wanted to know if it is normal to only have 0 to 5 minutes sparring in a class? The classes are 2 hours long.

When we spar newaza it goes like this: They will split us up into groups with a black belt or two. One black belt will get in the center and one person from the group will spar with them for one minute. After the minute is up another person will spar with the same blackbelt. The same black belt will stay in the middle the entire time. I end up getting one minute of sparring and then I stand and wait for my next minute. It really sucks because I can hang with most of the blackbelts and even submit some of them.

When we do stand up sparring we usually only get a minute or two with one person and then a minute or two with another and that is it.

I'm getting frustrated because I would like to work my techniques against a resisting opponent.

The quality of judo clubs vary from place to place (As do black belts). How long have you been practicing there? There usually is a period where the instructor is going to put in the checks and balances to ensure that his ass is covered by enforcing new people to take it easy for a while. Is it every class that's like this? The simplest thing you could do is just ask the instructor what the format is and what you plan to get out of the class.

I have been practicing there since last November.

It didn't start out like that. We sparred a little bit more before they took a month break. They train out of a university gym so they had to shut down for exams. Since they restarted 3 Jan 2005 it has been nothing but lame classes with little to no sparring.

What really bugs me is the group sparring with one blackbelt while all non-blackbelts stand around and do nothing.

I'm thinking about not going and just training with a friend from work. Since the club has started up again I have learned absolutely nothing and feel like I'm wasting my time. Maybe I'm just more serious about my training than most people at the club.

So I should go up to the instructor and request more sparring time? More sparring is what I want but I don't want to offend anyone.

If you talk to the instructor outside of class time, at least you'll find out if there is going to be more randori time. Please mention what you want out of the class. Judo unfortunately doesn't have any mind-reading techniques, so your average club instructor can't know what you feel if you don't tell him\her. I doubt there will be any hurt feelings. And if there are, then move on. Overall, I think there should be some sort of quality control over this sort of thing. At the end of the day, judo is, and suppose to be hard work.

They may be getting off to a slow start because itis the first of the year after a break.

Sounds like a pretty "tame"class to me, but if there are lots of new people, it's understandable they would take it easy with randori at first.

They also sound pretty cautious about randori/sparring. Some teachers are like that because of fear of injuries.

Your best bet is to talk to the coach outside of class, after class would be best probably. You might just ask when sparring will increase, because you enjoy it a lot and learn a lot from it.

Ben R.

we call those "bull in the ring" type of drills where 1 person is out and the others come at him in 1 minute intervals. very difficult for the guy out there becusae each minute is a fresh partner.

is it possible that the black belts are preparing for a big tournament and thusly the lower-ranks have to suck it up and help them train for awhile right now? if that is the case you should put aside your needs nad try to help them. if that isnt the case then you need to discuss things as mentioned above.

there could also be other judo clubs in your area that are not associated with the university that might be better.

but.. more or less, everything you just mentioned is a huge reason why judo in the USA is not growing. crappy college clubs that dont train people well. college clubs should be designed for hard-core players and not for people who just want to do judo recreationally. college-clubs should be a place for student-athletes. they could have a beginners club on the side, but yea.. im ranting and raving now.. ill stop.

No, Josh, please rant and rave! Apparently the forum is not exciting enough for some people.

I'd say college clubs are crappy because the teachers are crappy. In fact, most judo teachers in the USA are pretty low level.

Also, not everybody wants to be hard core competitor. IN fact, most don't and dont' have time, being in college to get a degree and then a job.

Ben R.

So, where is this mysterious college?

I ran the club at Duke while I was a student. Yes, you get a lot of people who just want to do it for fun every now and then. You also get a bunch of ex-wrestlers who want to compete.

I dealt with this by having three days a week. One day was essentially all sparring and basically only the hardcore guys would show up. On the other two days I divided the class based on what people were interested in. The guys who wanted to compete were in a group and the guys who were more recreational were in the other. There was another guy who was pretty experienced so one of us would take one group and the other would take the other group. The problem was that we both always had to be there.

Anyway, we had mixed results. We did well locally but obviously not nationally. We were basically a club of people who started during their college years and had either no or some related experience. I would say, however, that tailoring the training to what people actually wanted to do (i.e. competitive group / non-competitive group) allowed everyone to progress relatively quickly.

I was the only dan grade that went regualrly during my college years but it seems that the year after I graduated 2 or 3 more shodans arrived on campus, not to mention a bjj blue belt or two. Damn, I miss out on all the good stuff.

-Adam
Go Devils

Ben I agree with what you are saying. My personal feeling is that there should be at least a minimum standard of judo. Obviously not every club can be the national center of judo excellence, however let's not kid ourselves. Judo is a form of wrestling. Judo is tough. When I started judo at mil col, we learned technique and we rumbled. We might not have had great judo, and some of the intricacies of judo weren't always passed on(just because you've got your shodan doesn't mean you should teach), but at least we were conditioned and had at least the fundamentals. I don't understand this " maybe they don't want to compete" mentality(I'm not attacking anyone), because even if they don't want to compete, by training hard and learning some shiai strategies judo leaves the textbook and meets up with reality. Your judo get's so much better. That way, when someone gets it in their head to start teaching judo, even if they are a time-in blackbelt, they're not screwing over their students by simply regurgitating "Best Judo". They can put everything into context: shiai, randori, judo as a sport, judo as an art. That's what I meant earlier by quality control.

" So, where is this mysterious college?"

It is in Canada but I think I'll keep the name and location quiet. There are two former Olympians connected to the club. One teaches and the other shows up every once in a while.

Are you sure you're not in some kind of introductory class? Doesn't seem that former Olympians would teach judo like that. But, what the hell do I know?

It sounds kind of funky to me. Even if the class has a light Randori day. Don't the guys stick around after class? Maybe ask one of the upper belts if they will hang out for 20 minutes after class and just go at it untill your exhausted.

ben.. college clubs that are worse than somebody's home club are a waste. period. people go to college to further their lives-- not to regress. i dont care if they dont want to compete or not, college judo clubs should be geared at taking the young, talented HS players we are fortunate enough to have and turn them into serious senior level athletes.

if you want to have beginning judo then offer it as a 1-unit PE class like they do volleyball and basketball and katate and all the other crap martial arts. but, keep the CLUB something directed for serious judokas who are coming to that college.

the biggest problem in US Judo isnt a lack of athletes or coaches. its a lack of places for them to go after HS. i absolutley promise that if there were even 4 more serious university programs out there that recruited, trained and pushed athletes the way the OTC, SJSU, JMJC, Pedro's do then the overall depth of senior-level judo in the USA would skyrocket.

Yeah, club sports in college are more a social gathering then for serious training.

I have seen college rugby clubs that were pretty damn serious though.

Josh wrote:"ben.. college clubs that are worse than somebody's home club are a waste. period. people go to college to further their lives-- not to regress. i dont care if they dont want to compete or not, college judo clubs should be geared at taking the young, talented HS players we are fortunate enough to have and turn them into serious senior level athletes."

You are assuming that everybody goes to college to become an elite Judo athlete? Elite athletes and national level competitors are the top of the pyramid,not the base. Oh, and I agree that if somebody already does Judo, and goes to a college club that sucks, it is a waste, in fact, crappy instruction is a waste of everybody's time. MOST people go to college of course to advance. For many, that means trying a martial art or combat sport for the first time. In fact, I'd say for most. And I state this having been involved in two college Judo clubs for many years.

I think that there should be college "clubs" that can provide the HS athlete the opportunity to move forward and excel in Judo. So we agree there.

"if you want to have beginning judo then offer it as a 1-unit PE class like they do volleyball and basketball and katate and all the other crap martial arts. but, keep the CLUB something directed for serious judokas who are coming to that college. "

I don't think I'd characterize karate, aikido, BJJ, whatever, as "crap martial arts".

Although having a 1 credit PE class is a good idea, even better if there are a series of classes, such as Beginning Judo, Intermediate Judo, Advanced Judo (like we had at ISU). In fact, my experience is that the PE class is where you recruit your more serious athletes. If you can get the respect of the PE department by running a good class, the chances of getting their support in further "real" athletic endeavors (such as a real college team) is greatly enhanced.

As an example, the Judo Club at ISU doesn't have "club practices". The reason being is that it was poorly attended in the past, because there were so many other credit Judo classes. The real progress was made in recruiting people to take credit Judo courses. We made a specific effort to recruit athletes from other sports that aren't offered as varsity at ISU. Like wrestling, which is very strong in SE Idaho. And it worked.

The Advanced Judo classes are where the serious training takes place, where the team spirit develops. All those guys DO join the Judo club, BTW. They have to join USA Judo to compete, and for rank promotion.

Some folks come up from the Beginning Judo class as well.

Now, I know you are talking about having a place for the talented HS Judo athletes to go. Of course, there aren't that many of them, but like you say, 4 other places for them to go besides SJSU would be a great start.

Like I've said before, it's all about the money for scholarships. You have to offer something more than just a good Judo program. Plus, the need for dedicated coaches who can make a living at teaching Judo at the college, and who can also run a program.

"the biggest problem in US Judo isnt a lack of athletes or coaches. its a lack of places for them to go after HS. i absolutley promise that if there were even 4 more serious university programs out there that recruited, trained and pushed athletes the way the OTC, SJSU, JMJC, Pedro's do then the overall depth of senior-level judo in the USA would skyrocket."

I agree to some extent. I really dont think that there are that many coaches at the level you describe in the USA. This is based upon what I have seen at several USA Judo Coach Training Camps/certification giveaways.

But, if you only needed 4 (in reality you would need more), you could probably come up with enough, given that they might need to move, give up an already going career, whatever.

I do think, as you have stated before, that JA and JF should come up with some sort of collegiate Judo program. Or at least try to sponsor a couple.

BTW, University of Lousiana at Lafayette had/has a HUGE Judo program and has had one for years. They were not able to recruit ANY of those hordes of HS Judo athletes. No scholaships or sugar daddy, though. They were even designated a USA Judo National Training Center (of course which got ZERO funding or help from USA Judo). So that program already exists.

Also, the program at ISU is of very high quality, well organized, and with a direct pipeline to Tokai (for coaches who come and get advanced degrees at ISU and are their for 1-4 YEARS), and IBU, who sends students to learn English and also for advanced degrees.

Both programs are capable of "pushing" those talented HS athletes, but neither has an scholarship money (although ISU is working very hard to get it started). As I've said before, the Boise area has quite a few high school judoka. We tried directly recruiting there. There was interest, but everybody wanted MONEY.

So, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Just to remind you,Josh, I'm on your side.

I just want to share my experience and take on things with you. We all have somewhat different points of view because we came up in different systems so to speak.

"" So, where is this mysterious college?"
It is in Canada but I think I'll keep the name and location quiet. There are two former Olympians connected to the club. One teaches and the other shows up every once in a while. "

No problem, I understand. With a name like Molsanman, I should have guessed you were from Canada.

Ben

Molsonman,

Canada has great Judo but most of it is in Quebec. If your college is in Montreal, the don't even waste time with that silly club which doesn't do any sparring. Go right to Shidokan Judo Club and never look back.

On average judo clubs have a 10 minute warmup, 1 hour ground, 1 hour standing. The first 10 minutes or so of each hour are devoted to showing a technique, then about 20 minutes drilling the technique, then 30 minutes sparring.

The better clubs may have all sparring without any techniques. Some clubs, particularly Japanese ones, may have MASSIVE drilling. They may make you do a certain uchikomi for long periods of time. This I think is a benefit of the Japanese system which Americans need to realize. American classes often times have a technique demonstration, and then people practice this technique, and then sparring. I don't think it's essential to learn Harai Makikomi Variant Grip #33 at practice. What it is essential is to know your bread and butter throw inside out. Doing uchikomi's for your best throw, say uchimata, every practice is key. Just my 2 cents but I'm sure others here disagree may with me about this.

What really matters in the end is you feel you haven't learned anything in a few months and haven't been challenged. It's time to look for another club if you ask me. Don't post your university, but do post your city and we'll recommend a suitable club in the area.

Rex

ben. we dont give any scholarships at all here. not a one. zip, zero, ziltch. the reason we dont have 100 people on the mat is 2 fold.. 1) people from out east are tentative to send their kids to CA for college and 2) local coaches of HS kids just dont give their kids any clue that there is someplace they can go for college that will take them to the next level.

i blame local coaches. they are arrogant, self-centered and often small minded. they care so much about the kids and train them well and do all this, but then the kids turn 18 and what do they do? "well, you didnt make the Jr. World Team. Have fun in college where-ever you go."

instead they should be saying "well, you missed that team, but there isnt any reason to think that you cant go to SJSU and make the world team in a few years. go give it your best shot."

local coaches are as much a problem with USA Judo as they are a benefit to it. they bitch and complain about why we dont have better results, yet what in the hell do most of them do with their talented kids????

wanna know why some of the other college programs havent been able to recruit much? its pretty simple. nobody thinks that their coaches are able to take them to the point of making the olympic team. and, to a point they are right.

look at who made it to the olympic trials. how many of them came from college programs outside of SJSU? none at 60kg, none at 48kg, none at 66kg, none at 52kg, and all the way up the ladder.

now, im not saying that these other programs arent good things and good programs and run by people who really do know judo (becuase i know that they are run by people who know good judo).

but, there is a problem here that isnt being addressed properly. if you want to have a serious college program that can produce people capable of making the Olympic Trials or competing overseas or winning the nationals then you have to have a coach who has the ability to recruit top HS players and convince them that s/he can take them to that level.

you have to have a program that trains like NCAA football and basketball train and expects the best possible results or you can be damn sure the coach wont be a coach much longer.

we need people to stop all the recreational college judo clubs and stat places where the best kids can go to get better without having to teach a beginner how to do seionage. funny thing is, it honestly isnt that hard to do, but you know that the people who run these clubs arent willing to take the criticism and change a damn thing.