"how, in the US, we have these people with a more "traditional" attitude than even the birthplace of judo ill never understand."
Good question. I've been told one reason: The Japanese-Americans in the early days felt a bit inadequat, and thus tried to "out japanese" the Japanese.
Also, maybe the cult like attitude Americans seem to get regarding all martial arts. Sensei worship is what we call it around here.
Ben R.
Out Japanese the Japanese...funny, but true.
Jarvis
We are so afraid to integrate our indigenous wrestling styles into our Judo. Has anyone in this country every watched someone from Uzbekistan do Judo? France? Russia?
For some reason in this country we have a real complex about integrating things that aren't "Judo" into our Judo game. I'm not sure where this issue arose from, but we are only hurting ourselves by not letting our feisty, combative, prideful nature show itself in our Judo. We have a very strong wrestling community, but we don't crosstrain with them the way we should.
Did anyone see Jamal Boras beat Koga in 1996 for Olympic Gold? Did anyone watch Miresmaili win the Worlds this year? Did anyone watch the Cuban team any time at all? It is good for the Judo of a country to reflect the characteristics of that particular nation...does American Judo reflect the charactericstics of our nation?
Jarvis
"Did anyone watch Miresmaili win the Worlds this year?"
I study that guy's matches like they're porno. No heavyweight (at least that I've seen) fights like him, so I surprise lots of folks when I use his moves.
"Did anyone watch the Cuban team any time at all? It is good for the Judo of a country to reflect the characteristics of that particular nation...does American Judo reflect the charactericstics of our nation."
This is an interesting observation. Just last night I noticed my 6-year-old kid's sensei telling the kids not to do stuff like morote-gari. "That's not good judo," he says. I thought it was in the Gokyo no Waza, right? And I have told my kid, who has yet to win a judo match but has won in wrestling using just this move, to try and get that whenever he can. Is this wrong for me to do?
the thing you want to realize about a young kid like that is the coach wants to build a solid foundation on fundamental judo first and foremost... things like gripping, posture, movement, etc...
when using throws like morote gari a lot of the judo coaches here will not be able to properly address those issues.
im not saying you cant teach how to use morote gari in conjunction with those principles, but that the vast, vast majority of judo coaches in the US are not going to know how.
if you feel he is in the best judo club in his area, then i would tell you to have him listen to his coach in practice. just tell him "he wants you to learn these basics first, then once you have them down really really well you can figure out how to bring your double leg into that better."
we are a Judo contry afraid of our potential. Old guard wants to be responsible for changs and wont let the knew guard in to do the things that they no are right. U.S. Judo wont change as soon as you want Jarvis.look at the resistance you have met trying to teach people better gripping tactic around Arkansas. Judo is about being adaptable and flowing ours isn't
"Having said that, I would have thought that in a contest it is best to use whatever technique you are best at right then"
Before a shiai a few weeks ago, my sensei told me to ignore the rules of judo and just use muscle memory from sumo and my other arts to get the guy (my opponent was huge, about 6-6, 325) down on his back by ippon or pin. He even told me not to worry about getting penalized! lol
I thought it was great advice, but I was too busy thinking to follow it. I got slammed by osotogari.
ttt
Judo is not what we call Judo here U.S.
I just started back up in Judo, going on 3 weeks now. I'm coming from a BJJ backround, so am familliar with the single and double leg take down (morote gari).
One of the Asst instructors, a Brown, told me a couple times now, not to go for them if I do randori with the Black Belts. In keeping with the emtpy cup mindset, I didn't question it. This thread has really opened up my eyes why.
Other than that, I am enjoying my training.
On the "This is not judo" note:
The judo rules don't tell us what throws the uke should be thrown with. They only tell us what throws are illegal. There's no word about how you should only use such and such throw. You can grab your opponent, levitate him with your "ki", and drop in on his back. As long as you show intent and control, it is your score, and it IS judo.
Tomas
anthony.. whomever that assistant is that told you not to attack BB's with morote gari is.. you can tell him to go straight to hell, and you can tell him i told you to say it. =) sure, you dont want it to be the ONLY throw you use, but the idea of not doing it because somebody is a BB is insanity.
now, he might just be trying to help you with etiquette, but tell ya what.. if i was there, id attack every single blackbelt with morote gari and id do it all night long. the idea that rank means i no longer get attacked with certin throws is complete bullshit. "oooo. im yodan now. you arent allowed to counter me with taniotoshi now" is laughable.
the only possible expection would be somebody who is condiered aged. i woldnt attack somebody in his late 50's or over with pick-ups and take-downs, but their rank has absolutely nothing to do with why.
morote gari is every bit as much a vaild throw as anything else. if it is to be a key throw for you it also has to be developed as others do. i would develop a gripping pattern and movement pattern that is effective for morote gari as well as other throws. while MG cant be used at every gripping exchange, it can be very effective with other throws.
gordinho: "I study that guy's matches like they're porno." OMG, THAT WAS FUNNY!!!! I'm not sure how I missed it before.
AnthonyEH: I'm not sure why some moron would tell you not to do that to the blackbelts. I mean it's a legal Judo technique that you mix in with your other stuff. Dude, just keep nailing those guys until they learn to sprawl, time Uchimata or ask for ways to defend it. Then maybe the rest of your gym will improve at defending other parts of Judo and maybe in the future we can contend with other countries.a
Resnick: Good advice.
This is so indicative of what I'm talking about. You have people in high places that actually believe Kata Guruma is not a "Judo" throw. Hell, it's in the Gokyo, it's in Nage No Kata. One day we won't be alone guys and girls and then the U.S. will have consistent world level competitors not just one every few years or so.
Jarvis
Wasn't Kata Guruma "invented" by Kano?
As for morote-gari - the only reason I don't use it very often is because I've got a lousy shoot and people usually see it coming all the way from China. Which actually might be a good reason to use it (or try to use it) since it ain't gonna get better by itself...
Kata Guruma was not "invented" by Kano...he did however refine it for Judo uasge
Kata Guruma is a variation of throws from older styles of JJJ. They have something similar in Aikido, Aiki Ju Jitsu, and other old forms of JJJ.
Ben R.
Well, I have made some headway. He has started trying to work on his newaza and I swear he threw Kata Guruma tonight. More than anything I'm happy to see him just trying some of our approach to Judo out. That is the coolest thing.
I'll tell you what we're on our way and I can't wait to see how these guys do in competition.
Jarvis
Yeah, I know - legend has it that he took it out of a wrestling book...thus my use of the quotation marks around "invented".
"Yeah, I know - legend has it that he took it out of a wrestling book...thus my use of the quotation marks around "invented". "
I think it is just that, a legend.
Ben R.
Sad, throughout all of our efforts the U.S. will not field a full team for the first time ever. This means we are definitely below 41st in the world now. What are the reasons we keep dropping so far down in the World rankings?
Jarvis