average BJJ Blue Belt: about 1 year to get that rank, right? 4 days a week? lets try 3 even... X 2 hours.. 6 hours/week X 50 weeks is 300 (to 400) hours of newaza in 1 year. student eats, lives, breathes, studies nothing but newaza more or less.
average JUDO BLACK BELT.. maybe 3 years. same training hours, 50 to 70 % of which is spent in tachiwaza. equals anywhere from 150 down to 90 (200 to 120 @ 4a days a week) hours a year of newaza.. Student eats, lives, breathes, studies throwing and gripping strategies more or less.
pretty obvious me why it is that the belt color system isnt a fair way to compare things.
a BJJ BB has spent thousands and thousands of hours in training pretty much nothing but submissions and his coach has spend even double the amount of time doing the same...and, even at that only the top performers are given a BB..
in judo a BB simply means you have been around for awhile, nothing more, nothing less. the only plausible comparison is to look at elite level judokas and try to make that comparison.. even at that, there are thousands of great judokas who hate newaza the world over.
i love judo and i think BJJ is a great sport. but these comparisons are just insanity. anybody who trains in BJJ is in awe of the ease at which a decent judoka is able to toss people around or just control them with his grips and even the best judokas i know are equally impressed when we get armlocked faster than we can react to the guy.
If we could only get a fighter with Judo BB, BJJ BB, and world class greco or freestyle wrestling. That would be one sick grappler. Any fighter fit that category?
"People yap about a blue or purple tapping a Judo black belt, but fail to realize that in many of those cases, the purple belt or even blue belt has been training just as long or even longer than the judo black belt."
This is a very valid statement. We have to lose this belt vs belt thing. It means nothing. A more appropriate measurement would be "time" training.
A BB in Judo signifies that you are competent at the basics (as it does in virtually every martial at), and not that you are elite. It can be earned in 3 years or so if you practice regularily.
To earn a BB in Jiu-Jtsu can take 8 to 10 years or more. A BB in Jiu-Jitsu is considered and elite athlete.
If we remove the stupid belts and look at time spent training, then a fair comparison for a new judo BB would be a blue in BJJ and for a very experienced BB in Judo a good comparison would be a Purple in BJJ.
I do both so am speaking from experience and observation.
Yeah, people keep missing the fact that ranking is different in Judo and BJJ. A blue belt in bjj is the first step towards getting the top rank of black belt. Meanwhile, a 1st degree black belt in Judo is the first step towards a higher degree.
Saying "I tapped a Judo Black Belt" tells me as much as saying "I tapped a BJJ non-white belt". Basically, it tells me nothing. If you say you tapped a Judo black belt, then tell what his rank was. 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc.
The Camarillo Brothers. Flavio Canto (though i think he is 'only' bown belt BJJ). Rhadi Ferguson (again 'only' a brown belt bjj). Jacare is Black Belt in Judo i believe. Sure there must be other world class cross trainers out there.
There are a couple of Japanese guys in my dojo who and they all tell me getting shodan in USA is more difficult than in Japan. They say its the same level as a green belt in our club. Promotion from shodan, however gets more more difficult. Kosen judo is just regular judo just different rules and not a separate art. That was how I understood it, it could have been a language barrier.
I have trained with MANY bb from Japan and there's no way that a Japanese bb is = to USA green belt.
Secondly, if the rules of kosen judo are different than sport judo, doesn't that; by definition, make it a different art?
I mean when you get right down to it; judo, sambo, bjj are all essentially the same art with different rules, yet are still strongly considered by most to be different arts. The same applies to kosen judo.
When I first met Yuki Nakai in Japan he was teaching at Enson's gym (Supertiger at the time, now Purebred) and was a purple in BJJ.
He went off to a major comp (Pan Pacs, I believe), cleaned house and got his brown. Next year, competed again, won again, and got his black. Not sure, but he might have competed at the black belt level each time.
He recently beat de la Riva (yes, that de la Riva) in a superfight in Japan and now trains a stable of moderately successful NHB fighters.
Yuki Nakai's background is Judo, hence the Black Belt in Judo, but only the purple in BJJ (at the time I met him). Yet his Judo ground game was sufficient to hold his own with, and defeat, prominent BJJers and thereby rapidly rise from Purple to Black in BJJ. this without regular BJJ instruction, as he was teaching not studying (or at least not on a regular basis).
Not all judo is the Olympic "throw and stand" Kodokan style. The Kosen style is much more ground intensive.
That being said, a good BJJ guy takes out an equally good Kodokan Judo guy on the ground, but gets schooled on the takedowns.
kakkarotto_san; i was surprised were when they said it.
They said it: GETTING to shodan is more difficult in USA. I wasn't saying that a shodan in Japan is a greenbelt level. Maybe,I didn't explain myself better- by the time shodan is achieved, it is the same a green belt level. I am just repeating what I was told.
I never really understood what Kosen was. My sensei played for his HS in Judo and wrestling in Japan and wrestled for Meiji University. I don't think Meiji U was one of the schools that play with Kosen rules. From what I understand, Kosen judo is what HS and a few Universities play. I never really got a clear answer from him what Kosen is. He just says its just judo like the other japanese folk in my dojo. This is my simplified answer to your second point. If I play , HORSE instead of 5-5 basketball, is it still basketball? No, but the techniques are there.
I asked him what his JJ class was like and he said, what I teach in my JJ class is what I teach in judo. He then further said, what we practice is actually JJ but what we do is Judo.
This is a true story that happened last friday. Me and 2 other guys from my class that are all white belts went to a judo school for a trial class and we rolled with them a little bit. We dominated several black belts... including the instructor himself who was an olympic alternate. I personally didnt tap him but the other guy we were with did. They threw us all around the place but when it came to ground work we dominated.
"Gets triangle/arm-barred, asks JJ what his BJJ rank would be (supposedly blue...)"
Yes, he was told he was blue belt level, but listen to what the people here are saying. They say the belt ranks are not equal because the time it takes to earn your belt in bjj is longer, so it gives an "apparent" superiority to bjj, but it really isn't.
In other words, Nakai was told he was a blue belt because he had only been training as long as a typical blue belt; that's why he had the same skill level as a blue belt. But if he had been doing Judo as long as a bjj bb does bjj, he'd been told he was BB level.
Oh wait! He'd been training for years! I guess that theory was just another Judo rationalization to make themselves believe their style is equally good on the ground as bjj. LOL!
Question: Why do Judo guys insist they are as adept on the ground as bjj guys, but rarely, if ever, do you find a bjj guy saying bjj is just as good standing?
Could it be that Judo guys recognize the disproportionate importance the ground has compared to throwing?
I have tapped judo blackbelts from my guard when I was a bjj whitebelt. A 260lbs whitebelt. The way I see it, it all depends on where you train. The place I went to for judo did little newa-za but plenty of stand up. So of course they had plenty to teach me stand up.