"who come out and make claims of their wonderful success over other arts (particularly judo) are self professed bjj posters who boastly identify themselves as such...IMO, these are not bjj people because the ones i know show professional conduct, humbleness and openness to everyone.."
We're talking about claims that can be empirically verified. Why not speak about your own experinces or observations regarding the issue?
Whether you believe those who've made claims is a seperate issue, but to call their experiences or observations meaningless with respect to the question at hand is equivelent to sticking your head in the sand.
Should noone post their observations about the issue? Should they post names and emberrass the people they're talking about? Seriously, what should one do that has many direct experiences/observations about the issue do? Ignore the thread? Lie and say they are equal? Say the Judo guys always beat you to be respectful? LOL!
Perhaps there was a misundertanding. I am judoka but I don't feel that having a judo bb holds the same weight as bjj bb. You agree?
I NEVER stated that it was "impossible" for a judo bb to defeat a bjj bb.
In fact, in my first post regarding the topic I said, "two words.... Pawel Nastula." I was implying that I felt a judoka of Nastula's ground skill could more than handle a bjj bb. Go back and review it.
Look, I'm not looking to get into a bjj vs judo/which is better kind of argument. I'm trying to educate people that Judo bb and bjj bb are two TOTALLY different things and that you can't really compare them. Just because they are both black belts doesn't mean that they are, or even should be, of the same skill level. Shodan has probably only trained for around 3 years = around blue belt for bjj.
Now, judo in Europe, as well as kosen judoka's, is totally different than USA or Canadian judo.
but it WAS a sambo tourney. surely rickson was aware of what kind of event he had entered. also, on the cold hard concrete of a street, plz dont tell me one o-soto-gari or tai-otoshi will not end the fight. on thick tatami of course that's a different story. would you prefer to pull gaurd in glass and GOD knows what else on that same street? maybe, but not me...i politely disagree with you that bjj is more "practical" b/c in real life people wear clothes AND judo also has the EXACT same submissions. not to acknowledge the two sports compliment each other is incorrect in my point of view. thank you.
that is just my point, the posts come out about how they beat so and so, and few people even post their own real names, where they train, or have any posted history of their experience..as for myself, i am not hiding anything, you can read my info from my bio and wayland is my real name..
as for speaking about my own experience, i have...if you want to know more about my sport records, check my website..
as for not encouraging others to express different views, not at all..afterall, i am engaging in this exchange arn't i?
IMO rude cockiness of posts with respect to this nature often reflects inexperience with sport..that is all
ksan: you have a point..and i apologize, i did not read into your statement about nastuala...that makes sense now that you have explained it to me...
yes, there is a big difference between the awarding of bb grades in judo vs bjj..i agree...and i also agree with european judo athletes, i have been to camps where i saw and fought with guys who were monsters on the ground, just incredible..in fact, the camps often were structured so morning training for 2 hours was 5 minute ground fighting rounds for the whole practice and the afternoon training was 5 minute standing fighting for the whole practice...
i was experiencing this before the explosion of bjj in north american and the first ufc..these guys were good..
LOL @ you guys comparing the effect of the average successful throw to the effect of the average successful submission were it to be completed. And you wonder why things get out of hand on these threads.
i dont want to argue at all, but in 2 of 3 gi grappling sports, throws END the fight the same as a deep locked-in triangle. i want to be civil and polite, not a jerk. thank you.
LOL@you for thinking that the technique that comes into play first in a conflict doesn't have advantages beyond percentage chance of finishing the match outright.
LOL'ing rather than arguing is fun. Thanks for introducing me to the technique.
"marck,
i dont want to argue at all, but in 2 of 3 gi grappling sports, throws END the fight the same as a deep locked-in triangle. i want to be civil and polite, not a jerk. thank you."
I realize the sport ends when a successful throw is executed, but that hardly translates into the propostion that those throws would have ended an actual fight.
Throws are difficult to execute in a way that will end a fight. I'm not saying it can't, but do you really think Rickson would've been finished after Ron Tripp threw him? I bring this example up because you brought it up originally.
"LOL@you for thinking that the technique that comes into play first in a conflict doesn't have advantages beyond percentage chance of finishing the match outright."
By your logic we should see more KO's from throws in the UFC than we see fights ending in submission. Why don't we? Ahh, it's the mats and breakfalls, right? I forgot. LOL!
Think about what you guys are saying. You are saying that the average successfully executed throw will have the same or greater effect than a sucessfully executed submission. Do you really believe that?
"LOL@you for thinking that the technique that comes into play first in a conflict doesn't have advantages beyond percentage chance of finishing the match outright."
Come to think of it, you're right. Boxers almost always start with a jab and the fights are often ended with that first technique. I quit.
"evan tanner (by tito) and igor ? (by frank shamrock) are two examples of throws ending the match...and these examples were on mats, not concrete."
Out of how many fights? and out of how many takedowns? and compared to how many fights ending with a submission? Unless your argument makes sense in its proper context, it's almost meaningless.
Well heres the bottem line- You get the best Judoka from each weight class and put them against the best BJJ guys in a submission only match, and you will see the BJJ guys strum the Judokas. If you do the same but under Judo rules, the Judokas will strum the BJJ guys.
And Flavio Canto trains on the ground with a lot of world class BJJ guys, he's bound to have been shown a thing or two.