David Camarillo is a BJJ Black Belt. His brother (dan) is a Brown belt. They did a pretty good interview about the difference between judo and jiu-jitsu on sherdog.
Flavio Canto might as well be a BJJ Black Belt. He trains with a lot of BJJ Black Belts in Brazil. Its not uncommon in Brazil for Judokas to train with BJJ guys for the ground and vice versa.
"As far as a Judo bb tapping a Bjj bb... two words.... "
i believe the question posted was what everyones own experience with this..
your post indicates you have little knowledge of both..
Kakarotto_San does raise a good point.
THe belt system for judo and BJJ run on two very different grades and time scales.
People yap about a blue or purple tapping a Judo black belt, but fail to realize that in many of those cases, the purple belt or even blue belt has been training just as long or even longer than the judo black belt.
So, if a purple belt who has been training for 5-7 years taps out a judo black belt with 2-3 years of training, its not really as impressive or decisive as the BJJ fanboy community would like to believe.
also, being a US based board it might be good to remember that the US isn't a strong Judo nation, internationally. You may be more likely to this where the Judo is top level.
Actually, wayland, I do have quite a bit of knowledge in both.
Instead of being a dick, you could actually comment on how you feel my post was incorrect and state examples and facts to strengthen your point.
Or do you just have an inferiority complex and like to be a dick?
I tapped Judo blacks when I was a blue belt. Four of the five I trained with were "big" names in the sport. There is NO COMPARISON between the average judo bb and bjj bb on the ground. None. Two of them later became VERY good at bjj.
I forgot which bjj instructor was quoted as saying this but something was said to the effect that Flavio Canto (Judo BB) taps Shaolin Riberio (BJJ BB) in training quite consistently. We do have to remember that this is practice though and not a competition which does not count for anything. I have heard many people claim that Canto is at the level of a BJJ BB on the ground even though he has little formal traing in it. I believe he was awarded an honorary BJJ BB.
"Ricardo Arona is the man in ADCC, but he's never actually submitted anyone."
Actually he tapped out Roger Neff in the absolutes in ADCC 2001. ;)
"Actually, wayland, I do have quite a bit of knowledge in both.
Instead of being a dick, you could actually comment on how you feel my post was incorrect and state examples and facts to strengthen your point.
Or do you just have an inferiority complex and like to be a dick?"
oh really? then why didn't you state what your personal experience was rather than a generalization? so what is it?
and as for being a dick, insulting judo bb like myself invites a rhetorical response..i have a lot of experience in bjj and judo so i offered an informed opinion without insulting practitioners of either..learn some tact when you post
"Yawn. Flavio Canto is to Judo jockriders what Rickson is to BJJ
jockriders. No one gives a shit what Flavio Canto supposedly does."
What?
How many times has he been to the Worlds or Olympics? If people
"jockride" him its because of what he does in tournaments.
Wayland,
First off, please explain to me where exactly my statements showed that I have "little knowledge of both.. "
Secondly, I never insulted judo bb. Are you upset because I said that you can get a judo bb in 3 years?
Shodan is nothing, I know shodan's that couldn't hang with bjj white belts. Shit, I know Yodan's that couldn't hang with bjj white belts. Are you upset about that?
Thirdly, what "informed opinion" are you talking about? You didn't offer any informed opinion at all! Basically, you called me out. You said that I don't know what I'm talking about, correct? Well, that's NOT an "informed opinion". Prove it. Enter into reasonable, educated debate with me. Prove that what I am saying is false.
Lastly, I am judoka.
And, after training with Pawel Nastula, it is of my opinion (which is what was asked), that he could indeed tap some Bjj black belts.
There will always be individuals who are extrodinary. It would be VERY unlikely that there doesn't exist a superior Judo BB that can't tap, say, the worst BJJ BB.
But in this case, if you're just looking at styles, those exceptions prove the rule that bjj is a superior ground fighting sport/art compared to Judo.
You REALLY have to be ignorant to believe otherwise, just as you would have to be equally ignorant to believe BJJ guys are better at throws than Judo guys.
marck has ipponed the correct.
Taka Kunou, a Judo BB who still has no belt in BJJ, submitted Mica, a BJJ BB under Rigan Machado, with a gi choke in a BJJ match on Dec 2001. You can check out the whole fight clip at onthemat.com.
http://onthemat.com/video_search.php?search=taka
Taka also won the black belt heveyweight master division at Pan Ams 2004 by submission (leglock).
I train with Taka once a week (I'm a BJJ purple). I honestly think that he is able to beat most (if not all) of the BJJ black belt under 200lbs in a BJJ match. He's a physical monster with incredible Judo skills. On the feet, he can throw me every 10 seconds. He is really really good on the ground too.
inf0tr8r, training sessions are not always as meaningless as you make them out to be. Some of the "training" sessions I was referring to took place in front of some important spectators where the individuals reputation was on the line. We were going 100%, just as we would have in a comp. It happens, you know.
k.san:
here is my "informed opinion" which was previously posted on this thread:
to answer your question, yes i have seen it and experienced it personally and my question is "why is it such a surprise?"..
most if not all bjj blackbelts would definitely dominate over judo bb given their training and proficiency in groundfighting..
one thing always misses in these threads and that is not all judo bb are the same..the vast majority are recreational of all ages, not former elite competitors...unlike bjj, with fewer bb who obtain their rank by enlarge from successful sport competitions and many years training...
remember that judo fighters have preferences for ground work, and there are many who are extremely good at it and win consistently with submissions..
the major differences is the approach to the strategy of judo ground work (ie top control with pinning for position) vs guard work...
in judo, judo bb beat judo bb from other clubs and countries in training constantly, and it is no big deal in training..like "you got me this time, good job, lets go again and maybe i will get you"..in my experience this is why tapping out in judo training is not a huge deal, not the same with bjj philosophy...
in judo, you prove your performance by competition, not practice..i have seen so many guys beat every one up in practice, but inevitably choke when it comes to tournaments..
for the record, bjj bb and judo bb (those who have good fighting experience) are comparable and will take different strategies in fighting one another..it is all about making the other player play your game..
hello everyone,
first, in case you dont know (i'm not being a jerk) a judo player is called judoka...in my EXTREMELY limited opinion, there is a huge difference b/w the levels of belts in judo and bjj. simply put, here in asia where i live, judo bbs are earned generally in less than three years for sure. some get it much sooner. it's kind of like uni, stay around long enough and you'll graduate. bjj bbs take 7+...most of the time bjj players quit well before that time. and here the judoka bb standing in front of me during randori must defend that belt. most of them kick my ass, but some don't. that would never happen against ANY bjj bb, brown, purple and even most high blue belts. but the great judoka in my gym slaughter me and toy with me like a cat with a mouse. my point (finally) is that there is not as big of a difference in the skill level of bjj bbs as judo bbs. but great v. great, the judoka will always be at a disadvantage b/c "submitting" is more highly regarded than throwing...that is one that i dont understand. wasn't it a throw that gave rickson his only loss?
"First off, please explain to me where exactly my statements showed that I have "little knowledge of both.. " ...you never indicated your experience in your first post, you just made some generalizations...
"Secondly, I never insulted judo bb. Are you upset because I said that you can get a judo bb in 3 years? Shodan is nothing, I know shodan's that couldn't hang with bjj white belts. Shit, I know Yodan's that couldn't hang with bjj white belts. Are you upset about that?"...i suppose i read into this statement incorrectly "A bb in Judo means shit". ?
look, you have one thing i agree with that is the time length for black belts typically differ between bjj and judo, i agree with that...
if you are a judoka and have trained with nastula,then why the make the inference that it is impossible for judo bb to do well against bjj bb? in fact, your original post infers that it is virtually impossible, yet now, you state that nastuala would do well?
"submitting" is more highly regarded than throwing...that is one that i dont understand."
Because bjj is more practically oriented, and a choke or an armlock is more likely to end a fight than a throw. If you doubt this, ask yourself why throws are allowed to be completed and chokes and armlocks must be stopped.
"wasn't it a throw that gave rickson his only loss?"
Under Sambo rules, yes. If allowed to continue, I'm sure the other guy (Ron Tripp) would have been tapping in no time.
these type of arguments have absolutely no point to them...once again, success comes from the training experience and background..
given some essential differences between the two, i read these statements about so and so beating so and so after reading a book on submissions...
you know, i have beat TKD bb and karate bb and aikijujitus bb guys before and made them tap while they were trying to punch and kick me..i have never practiced either of the two sports prior..does this mean that any judo bb or judo player as a blue belt can beat all TKD and karate guys? you don't see me make those generalizations because it is obviously ridiculous to do so..why? because i recognize these bb have little (may be regional) sport experience..if i was to fight the state or national champ, i am sure it would be different...they are very good at what they did, but i was better at playing my game and in better physical condition..
did i come here and post stories? no.. this is my whole point...unfortunately, most of the posters who come out and make claims of their wonderful success over other arts (particularly judo) are self professed bjj posters who boastly identify themselves as such...IMO, these are not bjj people because the ones i know show professional conduct, humbleness and openness to everyone...unfortunately this mole like attitude comes from those still clinging to a ufc glorified "my dick is bigger than your dick" attitude...
this type of response on will lead to a crushing and humiliating defeat eventually and will stop any growth technically and morally...i know, i have done this before and have learned from it...