JoshuaResnick - Judo is a great sport and lots of fun, but this thread is about how good Judo is as a cross over martial art, and I think a small change to the scoring of ippons would have a large effecte on how effective Judo is outside of Judo competations.
We should simplify this and forget about judo, jiu-jitsu ect.. whether someone does a throw in MMA should be the question. My answer is no, unless he has the ability to land in a good position. Karo's throws were ineffective. I didn't care who won that fight, but if you are a judge, there is no way Karo came close to winning that fight and I like him. He never had Diego in trouble with strikes; he never had position on Diego; and he was the one always escaping from Diegos attacks. Judo players are always looking for reasons to why Karo's throws were impressive. By the way I do judo.
I would never teach anyone to use more throws in MMA to make it dynamic. Being a high level Judo player takes years and years of practice to pull off those throws; wrestling is more effective and functional for complete MMA.
On another note, Let me say this about cross over training. BJJ/Judo, should used primarily for MMA groundfighting not for throwing.
I always thought that Kevin Randleman would of been so much better if he learned BJJ. When he had top position, he just did not know what to do. It was painful to look at sometimes. He was so athletically gifted he could of learned it well.
I look at Koshcheck the same way, he needs to spend more time learning BJJ. I know he is training with Dave C., but for him to say that he spends 90% of his time learning stand up is a mistake. Didn't he lose to Fickett via choke? What could he do to Sanchez when they fought? He should spend more time learning how to escape chokes, he may be there again.
actually, I agree that high-amplitude throws should not be done in MMA for the "sake of it"...if you can't hold position, they aren't worth it. But, even if Karo had done singles/doubles, would he have held position? Diego IS VERY good at transitions. Koscheck (a much better wrestler than Hughes) could not hold Diego down for two entire rounds...so was it the high-amplitude throws that led to the lack of transitional ability (theorized by FOS or Wasa-B) or was it just that Diego has superior transitional ability (theorized by Josh)? Or a combo...Diego's stance may also have made him more susceptible to harai-goshi since he isn't expecting it
"I always thought that Kevin Randleman would of been so much better if he learned BJJ. When he had top position, he just did not know what to do."
yeah, I'm with you there...but speaking of transitional ablities, do you think that a judoka would have an easier time learning BJJ than a wrestler or is there no difference in the end?
Great reading.
what's great is how we all defend our primary art ;o)...and have elaborate excuses ready
I mean, Trigg (a world-class wrestler) was owned by GSP (someone with little/no wrestling prior to MMA training) in the takedown and grappling department...shows you the weakness of folkstyle and freestyle right there, I say*
*captioned for the sarcasm impaired
but the part about judo leading one to have muscle memory that causes a lack of control off of the throw (as ippon is more important/possible in judo) is something to ponder if you are a would-be MMA fighter...still, I do think that Karo would have "corrected" this problem by now, but maybe I'm just excuse making there.
"I look at Koshcheck the same way, he needs to spend more time learning BJJ. I know he is training with Dave C., but for him to say that he spends 90% of his time learning stand up is a mistake. Didn't he lose to Fickett via choke? What could he do to Sanchez when they fought? He should spend more time learning how to escape chokes, he may be there again."
You should watch the fight before making comments about it.
Koscheck took Fickett down and controlled him with ease. He avoided any and all attempts at subs with ease, and stayed busy landing some decent shots on the ground, but nothing huge.
He got caught in a choke, AFTER Fickett nailed him with a knee that nearly KO'ed him in the last 20 seconds of the fight. Koscheck had such a lack of faith in his STAND Up, that instead of moving around for the last twenty seconds, he took an ill advised and poorly timed double leg attempt, ran into a knee, and then was choked out. Koscheck barely defended the choke at all, he was barely conscience after the knee.
Yes, I agree, Koshcheck was dominating Fickett; taking him down and controlling the fight on the ground, and Fickett is not that easy to take down. Koshcheck was only dominating when he was on top of Fickett, when he was in a difficult position he got caught. Groundfighting is more that just getting top position. This does not make you good on the ground. Learning how to escape is just as important. Look at Karo, he could not see out of one eye and was having trouble seeing when Diego mounted him, but he still had the technique to escape the mount and back, even after getting hit, that is impressive groundwork.
Just having superior take down techniques does not mean that it makes it functional in MMA. You are right, Koshchech should not have gone in for a single, I agree. So should he still be learning how to use his skills on the ground. Yes, because if you make those mistakes then that tells us you need more work on the ground. He does not have the awareness yet, like Karo does.
Let's face it, if you just think that you are going to be fighting from a dominant position all your career then you need to re-evaluate. At some point you will be in an inferior position on the ground whether you are a world class wrestler or not, it happens.
the idea, as far as i can tell, behind throwing people in MMA is to SHOCK them. they are at a complete loss in terms of their own body positioning, their feelings of gravity, the cage spinning around them, etc and then to land in an awkward (albeit not always harmful) way...
but, in the case of something like what we witnessed with Diego, those things did not seem to phase him much. afterall, when you toss somebody half a dozen times they start to expect the next half a dozen..
the other thing to really keep in mind is that MMA is not self-defence. i dont think anybody on this thread is foolish enough to equate them as being the same. MMA is a sport with its own rules, dress attire, strategies, etc.. anybody who is planning to be at the top of MMA will be training MMA in specific. They will bring whatever else they experience into that training with them.
"the other thing to really keep in mind is that MMA is not self-defence. i dont think anybody on this thread is foolish enough to equate them as being the same."
What's your point with that? Hope it isn't that MMA fighters are less prepared for self defence than people doing traditional forms of self defence.
oh, and one other thing.. KOS's gound game is not at all weak. he is EASILY way better at bjj/sub wrestling than most of you think.
pulsar, no that wasnt my point. not at all. the point of it being that often people judge judo and wrestling being used in MMA as if MMA is the ultimate judge of self-defense/preservation.
my point is that you cannot judge something like judo or wrestling on their capabilities when shit hits the fan becuase of what happens on an elevated, padded floor.
its hard to be in control of someone who is greased up
MMA is great for fighting, but real self-defense involves weapons. Bar fights might be unarmed, but people really trying to hurt you will have a knife or a gun.
I think the point was, if you throw an average Jo Shmo hard, they will be stunned and easy to either escape or gnp. If you throw a trained MMA fighter, they are used to it and ready to scramble for position.