karo was never 3rd in the US, he's a mma fighter not a judo fighter...
he's much better at mma then he was at judo.
all the guys in mma make him look better at judo then he really is.
not to take anything away from him, i think he is a great fighter but he's NO yoshida.
I beg to differ with the statement that Karo did not take a bronze at the
nationals. I was on the mat as the referee when he did that in OH. He is all
that and Diego did have a lot of frequent flyer miles after talking all that
mess. I personally had the fight much closer and couldhave even seen it
going for Karo.
He will be back there is no question.
David
"Karo throws are SICK. His standup needs alot of work!!! His jujitsu is good enough to get him out of bad positions...but that's about it."
Karo's ground work is judo as much as his throws are. Where are you getting that he uses jujitsu?
"I beg to differ with the statement that Karo did not take a bronze at the nationals. I was on the mat as the referee when he did that in OH"
LOL! Oops on someones part.
But anyhow, for the 100000000001th time, Karo has been doing MMA alongside judo since he was a teen. Yoshida entered MMA when he was, what, 34.
Its very, very (very) simple: Yoshida is the better pure judoka (obviously), Karo has better judo adapted grappling in MMA (obviously). Pretty obvious or no?
FOS: again, you hit some good points, props. But, again, i think it just comes down to A) Diego is that good and B) Karo was pretty gassed when he was reversed off the throws for the most part.
It is true though if you go and look at the pure sport comps of each that in wrestling the tds are meant to be down entirely for ground control and there after ground action.
In judo, its all about making your opponent land on his back and you commit your body in ways just to do that. The ground work and position thereafter is an afterthought.
"I agree, I think he's the best of all the clear Judo guys. Fedor's always a point of contention if he does Judo or Sambo."
He has stated over and over that he has done both since childhood. It really doesn't matter anyway since they are basically the same sport with slightly different rules.
How many of you criticizing Karo and his crappy follow through off the throws were also cranking one out to Karo's "awesome" kimura/keylock from a throw a year or two back. Or him dismantling Serra with throws??
Stupid stupid stupid..
Karo needs to train with Amar Suleov so he can do the uchimata into mount position!
kumikata, Karo is cross-training with Bravo, Tito, etc. these days, he has "JJ" exposure.
Koscheck couldn't keep Diego down when they fought. Koscheck is a damn fucking amazing folkstyle wrestler (better than Hughes).
If Karo's judo showed a lack of control being a weakness in judo, then Koscheck's lack of ground control clearly shows what exactly?
(although I do see FOS' point about judokas in general being that because of the competition they grew up doing...makes sense, but come on, Karo has been doing MMA for a while now)
"If Karo's judo showed a lack of control being a weakness in judo, then Koscheck's lack of ground control clearly shows what exactly?"
Koscheck just gassed, but judo just sucked!!!
"Fedor wasn't controlling him. That's not what he does. He sits on the rim and throws bombs"
So I guess anyone can do that against Mino ... or does it take a certain amount of balance and knowledge of the ground game?
Karo is better on the ground than most judoka. Not all of course, Neil Adams and Jimmy Pedro for instance would beat him easily. But he's far from typical.
Crosstraining between judo and BJJ is becoming popular for a reason ... judo has far better throwing/standup skills, BJJ far better ground skills. The next generation of judo and BJJ champs will do both.
actually, Jimmy Pedro has amazing guard passes...but overall, I assume Karo has better groundwork (cause come on, why would Pedro develop his knee bars?)
I like judo alot and have recently given up jiu-jitsu to do exclusively judo. That said I think that changing the rule about ippons to actualy requireing the player to have control of their opponent after they hit the mat (on top with the opponent going no where for a second or 2) would dramaticly improve judo as a cross over art.
....
chris, it would help in the cross-over, but so what..???
judo as a sport and a MA doesnt need to improve itself. it is the big boy on the block and will be for generations to come. look, there are tens of millions of people doing judo and many of them are the very best athletes in the world.
who is doing MMA?
a few retired judoka and wrestlers who are looking for paychecks after they cannot continue on the world scene in judo. and the very best bjj guys in the world during their prime.
you got to understand that the cross-over aspect of judo is not something that is ever going to be seen as a necessity in the judo world. the few judokas who do MMA will train for it at their clubs (like Karo did), but they will do that knowing that they give up a lot of their potential in judo.
it isnt something to complain about, it isnt something to see as a weakness. each individual and each club and each country will decide which way to go... and, good for them!
Wasa-B makes an outstanding point:
"In judo, its all about making your opponent land on his back and you commit your body in ways just to do that. The ground work and position thereafter is an afterthought."
fos
While I agree that judo is one of the big boys on the block in terms of the world of MA, I disagree that it's "The" big boy. Wrestling and boxing both have very large world wide participation, are part of the olympics etc, and some very elite competitors. Boxing in particular has a much bigger public awareness ... far more people can name boxing champions, past and present, than champion judoka.
But judo is definitely one of the big three (BJJ, kickboxing, MT, and MMA will take some time to get there).
i have accomplished nothing in the judo world but have several comments...
1. judo is not mma; of course this is obvious to all. but when i get thrown on my back the match is over...even if i have gotten guard and am ready to go...the point is the objective of judo is very different indeed. the throw and landing are (or can be) "the submission"...
2. i completely agree about the point made about these throws on unforgiving concrete...
3. i do not differentiate between bjj moves and judo moves...a triangle by any other name...aka sankuku...is still a triangle...in other words, know the rules well and you could compete in them both. a ton of bjj bbs are also judo blackbelts and a large percentage started in judo. the rules seperate these two sports...nothing more in my humble opinion...
4. if Mr. Williams said he was on the mat, then he was on the mat.
peace...
john
Judo is an MMA, just not in the striking methods. We do have katas
(horrible word) that have strikes but at the Olympic level there is none so
the number of people making the crossover is lower. They are
concentrating on making international results. It would be interesting to
see if we could get more people into doing both if we could raise the level
even more and higher level judo medals. In order to do this we have to
have a massive paradigm change in those that are wrestling and doing
juijitsu - to actually do the judo and learn to do it well. By doing this we
could see a rise in the number of dynamic throws in MMA fights and
better ground work done in Judo.
David