Keenan: Rickson and Helio = tough purple belt

voodoo child - 

Sport BJJ gives people a false sense of security. Most of that shit don't work in the real world. There's a reason why most BJJ champs steer clear of MMA or at the very least train completely different BJJ when they prepare for an actual fight. 

 

I'll go with prime Rickson, Helio, Carlson, Carlos, etc over any of these chucklehead sport BJJ guys most of which would get fuckin destroyed in MMA or a street fight.....

The context is for Sport BJJ. That’s kind of the whole point to his opinion is that there is a bunch of new stuff that’s been added now that you need to know than didn’t exist during Rickson’s time. Is all of that stuff going to translate over to MMA or a real fight? Obviously not, but it’s stuff you need to know in order to compete in sport BJJ today.

stillmatic -
voodoo child - 

Sport BJJ gives people a false sense of security. Most of that shit don't work in the real world. There's a reason why most BJJ champs steer clear of MMA or at the very least train completely different BJJ when they prepare for an actual fight. 

 

I'll go with prime Rickson, Helio, Carlson, Carlos, etc over any of these chucklehead sport BJJ guys most of which would get fuckin destroyed in MMA or a street fight.....

The context is for Sport BJJ. That’s kind of the whole point to his opinion is that there is a bunch of new stuff that’s been added now that you need to know than didn’t exist during Rickson’s time. Is all of that stuff going to translate over to MMA or a real fight? Obviously not, but it’s stuff you need to know in order to compete in sport BJJ today.

I understand what he’s getting at but I still stand by what I posted. I haven’t trained in a really long time but when I first started we were learning takedowns, how to close the distance, how to clinch, I don’t think these sport guys even bother doing that anymore. And to make it more painfully obvious, I’ve started to notice BJJ schools are offering two different curriculums, one for sport, one for real life. And self-defense only schools are starting to pop up calling their art Gracie Jiu Jitsu. I still think old school masters would rock any of these black belts today. I used to think it was all about tournament wins and performance, I was wrong. 

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I wonder if Keenan can get anyone who rolled with Rickson to agree with him.

bruce 2 inch chain punches keenan into bolivia

TheRoguewrestler - Rickson schools purples... But black belts not so much. Games evolved. I know we all want to think of Rickson as the "mythical little Chinese kung fu expert" but the reality is, because of his age and the evolution of the sport, he doesn't stand much of a chance against top level black belts.

LOL, so because an older Rickson would be beaten by the "top level black belts" hes now on the same level as a purple? LOL.

Of course half this fourm also thinks Bruce Lee would have beaten Jon Jones. 

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de braco - 

bruce 2 inch chain punches keenan into bolivia

But you can't Lop Sau the Worm Guard, bro.

BrocksSwockRanTrane_onShane - 
TheRoguewrestler - Rickson schools purples... But black belts not so much. Games evolved. I know we all want to think of Rickson as the "mythical little Chinese kung fu expert" but the reality is, because of his age and the evolution of the sport, he doesn't stand much of a chance against top level black belts.

LOL, so because an older Rickson would be beaten by the "top level black belts" hes now on the same level as a purple? LOL.

Of course half this fourm also thinks Bruce Lee would have beaten Jon Jones. 

Nonsense.

Bruce Lee could not beat Jon Jones... But Chuck Norris really could.

 

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shen -
BrocksSwockRanTrane_onShane -
TheRoguewrestler - Rickson schools purples... But black belts not so much. Games evolved. I know we all want to think of Rickson as the "mythical little Chinese kung fu expert" but the reality is, because of his age and the evolution of the sport, he doesn't stand much of a chance against top level black belts.

LOL, so because an older Rickson would be beaten by the "top level black belts" hes now on the same level as a purple? LOL.

Of course half this fourm also thinks Bruce Lee would have beaten Jon Jones.

Nonsense.

Bruce Lee could not beat Jon Jones... But Chuck Norris really could.

Image result for touche animated gif

What was the context of Keenan's statement? Anyone have the source video? I would like to HEAR his intent, not a gosipy quote from a low brow BJJ tabloid.

stillmatic -
voodoo child - 

Sport BJJ gives people a false sense of security. Most of that shit don't work in the real world. There's a reason why most BJJ champs steer clear of MMA or at the very least train completely different BJJ when they prepare for an actual fight. 

 

I'll go with prime Rickson, Helio, Carlson, Carlos, etc over any of these chucklehead sport BJJ guys most of which would get fuckin destroyed in MMA or a street fight.....

The context is for Sport BJJ. That’s kind of the whole point to his opinion is that there is a bunch of new stuff that’s been added now that you need to know than didn’t exist during Rickson’s time. Is all of that stuff going to translate over to MMA or a real fight? Obviously not, but it’s stuff you need to know in order to compete in sport BJJ today.

It’s not a bunch of new stuff. It’s a bunch of bullshit and it’s a totally different thing. It’s apples to oranges. When Rickson was young BJJ was trained as a self defense martial art, or a fighting art. Sport BJJ is a sport and has very little if anything to do with fighting. Keenan absolutely knows this and yet he still felt the need to make a shitty comment.

He basically said that guy who was the best hockey player ever would be a mediocre figure skater today. Just a total dipshit. 

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Jack Taufer - What was the context of Keenan's statement? Anyone have the source video? I would like to HEAR his intent, not a gosipy quote from a low brow BJJ tabloid.

I was waiting for you to chime in. I assume you have some time. You know, since you're not in Vegas.

Caladan -
Winston Wolf -
Caladan -
Winston Wolf -

i think Rickson would sub him now.To call him purple belt leval is an insult.Im purple belt and Id get destroyed and it be my pleasure

Sub him NOW? Nobody has subbed him ever on the gi (including Meregali, Buchecha, Aly, etc.) and only Gordon has done so in nogi. 

 

Do you think Rickson is still the best in the world at BJJ at this moment at 60?

first off Rickson is 60 why would he feel the need to say that about the biggest legand in the sport.If Ricksons back is ok yes in a sub only match I think Rickson would win who knows

Im not defending the comment. But Rickson isn't subbing Keenan today bro.

u must have some connection with him and u are defending him..thats my opinion until Keenen goes there and makes that claim to Rickson in person i stand by my comment /

Caladan -

Honestly I think this whole thing is overblown. The context of the conversation was bowing to "old masters" and he was mostly talking about Helio and the founders of BJJ and he off handedly threw Ricksons name in there. I legitimately think he was more talking about Helio and the other old-school old guys of THAT generation when he made the purple belt level comment. I'm obviously inferring here but that is the impression I got. I'm guessing if you asked Keenan directly if he really thinks Rickson is purple belt level, he wouldn't say that. That goofy redhead guy he picks on and runs around with is purple belt, he knows that dude isn't the same level as Rickson Gracie lol.

even more disrespectful talking about someone who is no longer alive and if it wasnt for that person Keenen would not even know what BJJ is

Jack Taufer - What was the context of Keenan's statement? Anyone have the source video? I would like to HEAR his intent, not a gosipy quote from a low brow BJJ tabloid.

Keenan explaining what he meant.

BJJ then u were taught to be killers Today u are taught to play footsie and points .Ill take the old school any day

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edited version below... my bad. Got all excited with the enter button.

He said it originally on his podcast, check it out for the full context. Skip to around 1 hour and 4 minutes mark.

The Matburn Podcast Ep. 10 Craig Jones - YouTube

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Winston Wolf -
Caladan -
Winston Wolf -
Caladan -
Winston Wolf -

i think Rickson would sub him now.To call him purple belt leval is an insult.Im purple belt and Id get destroyed and it be my pleasure

Sub him NOW? Nobody has subbed him ever on the gi (including Meregali, Buchecha, Aly, etc.) and only Gordon has done so in nogi. 

 

Do you think Rickson is still the best in the world at BJJ at this moment at 60?

first off Rickson is 60 why would he feel the need to say that about the biggest legand in the sport.If Ricksons back is ok yes in a sub only match I think Rickson would win who knows

Im not defending the comment. But Rickson isn't subbing Keenan today bro.

u must have some connection with him and u are defending him..thats my opinion until Keenen goes there and makes that claim to Rickson in person i stand by my comment /

No connection. You clearly have a Gracie connection though. 

Good post by Jack. In addition to the Kevin Casey episode, I think the Henry Akins stuff made Keenant skeptical. That said, I've heard Keenan talk about how good Kron is. 

Without knowing what the context was I am trying to look at this from as an objective point of view as I can.

Its true that BJJ as a whole has a much larger talent pool than ever before. In agreement with that, getting to the top is much harder than any time in the past.

Getting a Gold in Wrestling or Judo is much more difficult than in bjj based on the size of the talent pool alone. That does not mean the people are less talented in bjj, but it is much smaller percent that make it to the top in Judo or wrestling than in bjj based on numbers alone. I am not saying that the top bjj men and women are less talented than in other sports but its a quicker road to the top. So the fact that the talent pool is larger than it was in the 80s might count for something.

Looking at this objectively, Keenan has never trained with Rickson. So his opinion is just that… opinion. Rickson is most known for “Invisible Jiu Jitsu” The phrase that describes his bjj makes it intangible. You cannot know it unless you feel it… . Having it described that way does make people think that it is a bit mystical. This can cause anyone to have doubt or call it snake oil. I understand.

Keenan competed against and beat a Rickson Black Belt, Kevin Casey in Metamoris. I think at the time either Ryron or Rener stated something a long the lines of, “Even though Kevin lost I would still rather have his JJ than Keenan’s.” This cannot do anything but sour Keenan’s pallet.

Techniques and strategy has definitely evolved from the 80s. There are more types of guards and everything else top and bottom in bjj than ever before.

Since Keenan’s comments were taken out of context and there is truly not a single standard for such an arbitrary ranking system like BJJ, what exactly is a Black Belt? What is a Purple belt? Does a 65 year old Keenan who herniated his disks not deserve his Black Belt because he cannot train with the young elite? Or can an older man or woman retain their belt and be promoted even though they are not actively competing? Do we rank up then back down in belts on ability to compete in elite comps?

As far as people holding up martial artist as deities… it truly happens… a LOT in many martial arts. BJJ is NO exception. I do think that Rickson has been held up by many people who have never trained with him and just need to have him as an idol. Completely unfounded in some cases.

Keenan has not trained with Rickson and as such cannot intelligently comment on his ability. That is the bottom line.

I on the other hand have trained with Rickson. Not as much as many but more than a lot of people. Rickson in my opinion is a black belt through and through. I have seen him fuck people up badly first hand including myself. I have no problem with Keenans skepticism one bit. He just does not know for himself and has every right to not believe so.

Also, in a personal conversation with Rickson he told me his JJ is physics. Its not mystical one bit.

I would hold both Inue brothers as Black Belts but (Enson, I belive) wanted to demote himself because he was not familiar with the current trends.

Anyway, I personally do not think that Rickson needs to prove anything to anyone. He contributed, he developed and he grew JJ and I think that is enough. He “in his prime, may or my not every loose” but that is all speculation and actually does not matter.

I think Michael Jordan would do well in any generation. His genetic make up, his competitive edge, his work ethic and all the other factors are timeless. He does not havce education on current strategies but they can be taught. I don’t think that would lower Jordon’s “belt.” I know for a fact that Einstein is considered one of the most brilliant minds. Why does not not apply to sport IQ (and no I did not call Rickson the Einstein of BJJ). Despite Einstein’s lack of knowledge of proof of Gravitational Waves, he obviously does not understand physics… Oh wait.)

I can tell you from first hand Rickson is not a black belt. He is a master. If you never get to learn more about that first hand, I can say you did miss out. I would say the same for Helio and Carlson.

I am not trashing Keenan, just saying there is no criteria for a BB. He does not know the depth of Ricksons bjj. I am one of those people who have first hand been fucked up by the man himself and watched him actively dismantle prime black belts.

I will have to find this, but I recall Rickson assessing a non-Gracie and stating that he believed that he has the potential of surpassing him technically.

Last point, all the elite who have rolled with him have stated how he fucked them up. I am not elite, but I am not naive. He is that good. I think their statements speak.

This post was taken out of context from a BJJEE shitty tabloid article that I think is pure click bait.