-BOBAZEE, AtlantaHammer.
You are both VERY correct. I was going to go off with a long post like these but you guys have done it for me. I think I would just repeat a lot of the stuff you both said. As I said before this question should be a no brainer.
AtlantaHammer- It sounds like you got the Ken Bio off the net. Have you read the book? If not its great. If you havent read it heres the title-
Inside the Lions Den. The life and Submission Fighting System of Ken Shamrock. By Ken Shamrock with Richard Hanner.
Harlan-
You mentioned in a previous Ken Royce Thread(Hate to admit I was Wrong...) That you were training at the Gracie Acadamy during there second fight and were rooting for Royce. You have also mentioned that Ken is in your top 10. Could it be that training at Gracie Acadamy has givin Royce some Sentimental value to you that clouds your logic on this issue? I mean come on. You refer to the Fujita and Frye fights as losses on this thread. Yet on other threads you admit that Ken beat Fujita up, and that the Frye fight should have been a draw.
Inerestingly-
In the Gracie Way book they talk about all of Royces NHB fights except the Ken rematch. This is not only funny, but disrespectful to Ken. Ken,s Book Honestly refers to both fights!
I like Royce alot and always will but thats messed up!
BTW Harlan...
Ken never said " he tooled me".
He said "He just cought me, thats the nature of submissions." Ken was very respectful after this loss and I dont appreciate you adding to his quotes so disrespectfully. You make emotional arguments here,and your points about street experence hold no weight.
Sorry dude,your a smart guy when it comes to MMA as far as Ive read. But on this topic you are sadley mistaken.
Its still nice to know that you rate Ken so highly. Props for that.
LOL ay Ken haters!
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Riccio trained to fight Robin and showed up unannounced in his school while he was teaching class. Robin Gracie had not been training for a fight; but took on the challenge and gassed out during the fight giving the win to Riccio.
Then Riccio put an edited version on the net and did a lot of trash talk. Royce and several students and relatives of Robin paid Riccio a visit which basically went down as described above.
""(Ken) was way over rated at that time""
Its pretty clear that I'm a Ken fan. But I really dont think he was overrated at this time as he was coming off two high-profile losses to Fujita and Frye.
Yes, IMO, the Fujita fight was a loss for Ken with an ASTRISK. After all he beat the Hell out of him. The Frye fight was a draw IMO, with Frye potentially saved by the bell twice.
Despite the circumstances in these fights Ken still got the Loss in both.
So combine these losses with Kens long layoff. Add to it the fact that most people picked Tito. I really dont think Ken was generally overrated at this time. IMO.
If anything most people I talked to didn't think Ken would last as long as he did. Granted I was not a UG member back then so I don't know what the majority of the UG was saying. But Most of the fighters I talked to picked Tito as well.
I still maintain that a healthy Ken at his natural weight could have beat Tito. At the very least givin him trouble.
Your right about Royce. Am I wrong to call it a no-brainer?
AvAMajestic-
A little off subject, but what do you think of my post that a healthy, heavier Ken could have beat Tito?
You said your not a Ken fan, but you don't seem to hate on him so much that it clouds your judgement. Unlike some people on the UG.
AvAMajestic-
I agree with some of your points, but not all.
I dont think Tito is a better wrestler or a better submission guy. Though I think they're in the same ballpark as far as overall grappling.
Tito has the more advanced G&P.
They,re close to even as far as submission defence.
As far as takedown defence they're two of the best ever IMO.
As far as offensive submissions I have to give the edge to Ken here. He has submitted some good guys. Plus he was the teacher of successful submission guys. Also being one of the best leg-lock guys which theres not alot of.
As far as Striking it's close. Tito a little more solid technique with a good power. Ken is a little sloppy even at his best, but has more KO power IMO.
I agree that Ken admittedly does not like fighting from his back. But even old, light, injured, and beat up he was able to stand up like three times against Tito,s ground game.
But Tito's gameplan doesn,t include fighting from his back either.
As far as intangibles like toughness, heart, and chin, I give the edge to Ken. But it,s hard to rate because Ken's overall toughness has been tested more IMO. Ken is one of the toughest guys MMA will ever see and it is evident in his career. Not that Tito's a slouch though.
Tito obviously has better cardio.
Ken has more pure strength, but Tito is by no means weak and has great mat-strength. Tito overpowered Ken but again its hard to judge because of Ken's Injury, which was no joke.
I know this is a little long winded so I,ll wrap it up.
The fact that Ken was able to take one of MMA's worst beatings by Tito at his best. Yet still buckle Tito,s Knees with a punch and get back to his feet. He ended the fight on his feet and didn,t quit. His corner had to step in with the towel so allthough he got beat up Tito didn,t stop him. Basicly Ken lost by acumulated damage and exsaustion.
So IMO it stands to reason that a healthy Ken would stand a good chance.
Back to Ken - Royce...
Looks like Ken still has a large lead.
If anyone else is for Royce, I'm interested in a detailed breakdown of how you think he would beat Ken.
I'm open to convincing arguments I just haven't heard one yet.
Thanks for all the posts.
"If anyone else is for Royce, I'm interested in a detailed breakdown of how you think he would beat Ken."
OnepunchJD makes a good case that on the street its often the big first punch that does the damage. Here I just don't see Ken's punch being so dominating and his takedown defense so great that he will simply stand up and punch Royce out. IMO, Royce has as good of defense as I've ever seen. He's gotten all his fights to the ground, never been KO'd, lost once in a war with Sak, and already beat Ken hanily once.
Most of this speculation about Ken KOing Royce is based on the single two-punch combo (which most people think was one punch but look in slo mo) he landed in the second fight after the standup. It was a great punch and hurt Royce afterwards. No doubt. I've studied that in depth from every perspective. But IMO a result of BJM intervening and an unlikely reoccurrence.
Since referee interventions, rules, and so on in NHB and pavement with spikes in it or friends that intervene (or whatever) in a "streetfight" make it hard to analyze exactly what happens without making at least some presuppositions. So let's assume its on a grass plane with no one around and both guys are in street clothes.
I tend to agree with GOTIME that it would be a war with Ken landing some punches, perhaps, but Royce playing defense and tiring Ken out then eventually submitting him. The things that are added in a streetfight, like groin shots, head butts and so on would favor Royce. Ken has a decent "punchers" chance but I still give the edge to Royce.
The Kimo fight will tell a lot about where Ken is at now and how this streetfight with Royce would transpire. If Ken fight like the first ten minutes against Fujita, maybe he could catch Royce now, but if he looks over the hill like against Tito, I'm even more confident Royce would weather an early storm and outlast Shammy.
Ken would kill Royce on the street, in thier last fight ken was on top the whole time. being on your back on pavement is a lot different than being on a mat. Ken would just bash his head into the pavement until royce died of blood loss or fractured his skull.
Royce, with no problem.
Hawk
"You would just have to see Royces bag of tricks to believe it. Ken would lose his eye balls in 5 sec. if he was caught in Royces guard. "
Why do so few people get this? Being trained from birth in a place where fighting matters so much, where "macho" is so important, where you have a number on your back and your trainers are the toughest family in the history of the world, would give you SO much knowledge and experience.
GO TIME: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"
At some point, it will go to the ground. Royce is good at the clinch and avoiding the stand up.
Since Royce is still better there, he would win IMO.
Ken doesn't have to be the "master" of sprawl and brawl to beat Royce. His sprawl and brawl is good enough to KO Royce. Ken doesn't have to be Roy Jones Jr. w/ his hands to beat Royce on the feet either. Royce sucks so bad on the feet that my girlfriend could outstrike him. At lest Ken "picked up a few combos" on the feet. What has Royce done to improve ? He's worse now IMO.
"Where in the hell do you come up with Royce using his Gi to choke Ken?
Sorry guys its been a while since I had net.
A rear choke can be applied with or without a gi. The Gi-choke aspect of this fight applies to Royse gripping the cuff of his choking hand with the other hand thus pulling the Gi sleeve up under the chin. The effect is similar to a rope. This grip is also what allowed Royce to gain the back off Kens leg-lock attempt. Royce also uses this grip off his back in the re-match to help keep Ken in a tight guard.
Not taking that first win away from Royce... just pointing out that these ARE Gi techniques! I guess I just assumed educated people watching these fights would find this obvious.
just thought id TTT this thread because of recent Ken-Royce 3 roumors.
BTW- I havent posted since before UFC 48 so .......
LOL AT KEN HATERS WHO THOUGHT KIMO WOULD BEAT HIM UP.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HOW YA LIKE THEM APPLES??!!
GOTIME- LOL, Ken KO,ed him! HA HA HA HA HA !!!
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:)
"Royce sucks so bad on the feet that my girlfriend could outstrike him. "
Ho ho, BOBAZEE's girlfriend can beat up Royce. Can you imagine how bad she must beat up this BOBAZEE wuss in the bedroon before she puts on the strap on and really "fucks him" up? Its great the dumbshit admits this!!
As for Ol' OnePunchJD - the lad has admirably picked up the role of our friend friend Sham, the biggest jockrider in history not counting that moron THERealJoker who is like a lamprey on Yves Edwards scrotum. But TRJ is an idiot and JD is smart, he just likes Ken too much. He still hasn't explained how Ken would pull this off. Trust me, a guy who's grappled on the streets of Brazil, the Gracie's can do a lot more from the guard with no rules than you might expect...