I think they would both lose to this crazy guy who appears from nowhere, yells something like "(someone or other) likes to dance when he gets the chance" then quick as lightening delivers two (very handsom) liver shots.
"This fight would not last more than 2 minutes, ending with Ken submitting again."
LOL When was the last time Royce submitted anyone?
And double LOL considering Sham wiped the mat with him for thirty minutes without getting close to subbed.
Look at Royce's face after the rematch. He got owned.
Ken would win. Royce would be mauled (over the course of several long minutes). And btw, I bet any money that Ken knows more about the "illegal holdds and bites" of the street than Royce would, because he has had many streetfights, unlike Royce. In nhb and on the street, Ken would win.
BTW dont mind GO TIME, he is a one of a kind, generally recognized anti-Ken, Royce-nuthugging troll.
Hey Harlan-
""When it comes to eye-gouging, fishhooking, biting, scratching and groin mashing, I'd give it to the shootfighting ex-pro wrestler street thug over the middle class martial artist any day""
"" And btw, I bet any money that Ken knows more about the "illegal holdds and bites" of the street than Royce would, because he has had many streetfights, unlike Royce.""
I only copied these guys because I couldn,t have said it better!!!:)
Thanks for posting guys. I really didn,t think this thread would get much attention but there are some great posts on here!
OK- So far Ken is leading by a significant margin. I did a quick count not counting repeat posts.
Royce= 7 votes. Ken= 20 votes.
BTW. I have made it clear that I am a Huge Ken fan. Even if I wasn,t my opinion of this Hypothetical street fight would be the same.
Its importand to say that I am also a Huge Royce Gracie fan. He is one of my all time favorite fighters!I made this threat to see what the UG,s take is on a long standing argument I have with a friend. So far its coming out in my favor. :) LOL!
This will easily get 1000 posts.
""If the first fight of theirs was on the street, Ken would be six feet under as Royce could have choked him to death.""
In the first fight Royce caught Ken with a Gi choke. Your assuming Royce would be wearing his BJJ GI on the street?
"In the first fight Royce caught Ken with a Gi choke. Your assuming Royce would be wearing his BJJ GI on the street?" - onepunchJD
No JD, I'm sure Ken walks around naked on the street to avoid getting choked with his own shirt.
"OK- So far Ken is leading by a significant margin." - JD
Yes, about the same margin as Liddell over Couture before that fight happenned. JD and his pals have made three arguments for Ken winning, and I shall now shoot all three of them down:
1. "Ken beat Royce in their second UFC fight". OK, Royce clearly won the first fight with a choke, so Royce entered 1-0. So even a decisive loss simply makes him even with Ken. In the second fight, the first 30 minutes were a draw, Royce kidney-kicking Ken while Ken held on to the gi as tightly as possible, his face in Royce's crotch praying for the clock to run out. Then Big John stood them up, "artificially" under old UFC rules, and Ken landed TWO punches. Watch the replay, its not just one its actually two - its 2 shots and Royce has a mark on each side of his face from two separate strikes. These were hard strikes, the only two seconds of damage Ken did against Royce in two fights! And I give this to Ken - they hurt Royce and allowed Ken to get a high guard in overtime and throw shots at will while Royce defended effectively. So I give the 30 minute regulation a draw and the overtime to Shammy. SLIGHT EDGE TO KEN. But overall in UFC, with Royce 1-0-1 against Glammy, a big EDGE TO ROYCE.
2. "Shammy has "evolved' more than Royce and 'fought more good fighters' than Royce". This is easy to refute. Royce has one loss, a 90 minute war against Sak and even though I often disagree with GoTime, he's right that Sak is better on the ground than Ken. Sak was #1 in the world in NHB at the time, a former Olympic level wrestler, and on a huge winning streak against modern NHB fighters... Yet he barely managed to edge out Royce in a 90 minute war. Otherwise, since his comeback, Royce tooled Yoshida who'd hung with today's top guy Vanderlei Silva. During this time, Ken lost to Fujita, edged out Otsuka, lost to Don Frye and then was horrifically brutalized by Tito. BIG EDGE TO ROYCE.
3. "Ken had a tougher life and more street fight experience." No chance. Royce grew up in Brazil and was tested since birth. Even if onepunchJD is correct and Royce had a "middle class" upbringing, he still HAD TO have been tested almost daily since birth. Imagine a family of Mike Tysons all priding themselves on KO's and hard punches and KO's being the family tradition - all that mattered to them. All male Tysons were feared in America and expected to fight like champs and beat everyone! Everyone knew this in America and moreover all American fans worshipped boxing and macho men above all else... Now, suppose YOU are Mike Tyson's son and you go to school here - and you live in a BAD neighborhood where everyone wants to make a name by fighting you. Everyone, every kid 5 years or older, wants to make a name by beating you and trys to fight you every chance they get. You face this ALL DAY EVERY DAY for your whole life. Such is the life of Royce Gracie. More so after winning UFC1. Wake up onepunchJD, Shammy has had a cakewalk life compared to this. BIG EDGE HERE TO ROYCE.
- BOTTOME LINE: Royce On the Street over Ken ...like a Ronnie Lott tackle.
Happily, it appears that onepunchJD and others who have read my last post now intelligently have finally capitulated - Royce wins this one on the street. Ken is great and I respect him greatly, apparently not agreeing with GOTIME here, but I submit that Ken is a talented fighter. Yet on the street he would be broken down and finished by Royce Gracie. Count on it.
TTT
TTT - Royce dismantles Ken on the street. Is there anyone, ANYONE, out there how disagrees after reading my analysis?
TTT
Sounds like Royce by unanimous decision here. Of course in the ring they'd call it "submission".
Interviewer: "It looked like you were ahead then seconds later you were tapping frantically...Why?"
Ken: "He caught me... tooled me... that's the nature of submission".
I disagree with you.
Point 2 is a mess. LOL at Shamrock "edging out" Otsuka (he completely dominated him and KOed him cleanly) and Sak "barely edging out" Royce - they had a competitive fight for 2 rounds, then Sak toyed with him until his family threw the towel in.
Your point 1 is biased but not too far off, and your point 3 is moot because we don't know for sure how many streetfights Gracie had - just that Shamrock had a hard upbringing and got into a lot of fights.
I can't see how a streetfight between those two would be anything other than Royce getting hospitalised, Shamrock is bigger, massively stronger, a better athlete and overall more skilled.
Harlan, the only one that has capitulated is your and GOTIME's hero Royce, who has recently talked a lot of trash about Ken, but was nowhere to be found when Ken called him out for a rubber match. Now, let me clear some things up in that terribly confused mind of yours.
A) Re your first argument
You, clearly a Royce Gracie fan, said:
"These were hard strikes, the only two seconds of damage Ken did against Royce in two fights! And I give this to Ken - they hurt Royce and allowed Ken to get high guard in overtime and throw shots at will while Royce defended effectively. So I give the 30 minute regulation a draw and the overtime to Shammy. SLIGHT EDGE TO KEN. But overall in UFC, EDGE TO ROYCE."
So, you, a Royce Gracie fan, have acknowledged the facts that Ken (in the true sense of the word) beat Royce in their rematch, meaning they are 1-1 in the UFC (as a side note, nobodies acknowledgement is needed for this because the UFC official site had written in Kens bio that 'most agree if there had been judges, Ken Shamrock would have been declared the winner'). HOWEVER, the rematch doesnt just "simply make him even with Royce"; the edge in the UFC goes to Ken, not Royce, for three reasons.
1) Their first meeting was a tournament fight, a SECOND ROUND (in the same day) tournament fight, while the rematch was a single superfight. This fact alone clearly makes the rematch a more legitimate, and therefore a more important fight than the first, ie, EDGE TO KEN. We can also throw in that the Gracie family was controlling the tournament format and brackets, resulting in Royce's first round warm up roll with the infamous Art Jimmerson, for their first meeting.
2) In the first meeting, they knew little about each other and didnt even know they would be fighting each other. In the rematch, they had time to focus on each other's strengths and hone their techniques.
3) In the second fight, BOTH WERE CLOSER TO THEIR PEAKS AS FIGHTERS than in the first fight. So we saw the best Royce Gracie vs the best Ken Shamrock (or closer to it than in the first fight), further placing higher significance on the rematch than their first encounter. Thus, overal in the UFC, CLEARLY EDGE TO KEN.
B) Re your second argument
Ken HAS evolved more than Royce. Since Royce's comeback, in which he sports only one win, via decision against Takada (lol), Ken has two stoppage wins (including a TKO via strikes stoppage against Otsuka, something Vovchanchyn couldnt pull off one fight prior). He also fought a completely even fight with Don Frye, standing toe to toe on many occasions against the bigger man (lets see Royce pull that off), and many, myself included, thought he won this fight by Pride rules as well. He lasted through three rounds agaisnt a prime Tito Ortiz whilst fighting on a torn ACL. In addition, you conveniently forgot to mention that since their rematch, Ken has also chocked out Severn in the first minutes of their fight, tapped Kimo, defended his belt vs Taktarov (who went on to beat fellow legend Marco Ruas at the next event) and picked up several more wins in mma and in Pancrase. There is NO DOUBT as to who has evolved more. I have many a time refuted GOTIME's Sakuraba argument, but to be brief, A) Royce lost B) Sakuraba and Ken are different fighters, just because Sak is slicker with the subs doesnt mean Ken couldnt beat him. The fighter A vs B vs C argument doesnt work! Overall, with respect to their evolution as fighters since Ken stole Royce's warrior spirit, A MAMMOTH OF AN EDGE TO KEN.
(cont'd)
C) Re your third argument
Regarding the toughness of their lives and their street experience, you said:
"Everyone you meet wants to fight you from age 5 onward... and it never ends. Everyone, every kid 5 years or older, wants to make a name by beating you and fights you. You face this ALL DAY EVERY DAY for your whole life. Such is the life of Royce Gracie. More so after winning UFC1."
This is just BS. Royce may have had some streetfights as a kid, but it was nothing like this IMO, state your source if you want to be taken seriously. He was in his late 20s when he won UFC1, and I am willing to bet he didnt have many, if any, streetfights after that.
You also said:
"Wake up onepunchJD, Shammy had a cakewalk life compared to this."
All I have to say is wow you couldnt be more off on this one. Do a little research on Kens background, some of the thigs you will find will include:
"Kenneth Wayne Kilpatrick was born on February 11,1964 in Warner Robbins air force base in Macon,Georgia the son of Richard and Diane Kilpatrick he was the youngest of three brothers.
Ritchie,Robbie and Ken all learned to fight at a early age, after Richard and Diane's marriage fell apart Diane was left to provide for her sons on her own.Diane who had her first child at the age of fifteen,was left to provide for her three boys all by herself. It was a challenge that nearly overwhelmed the young mother. She took jobs as a waitress and dancer at a club in Savannah.The babysitters she hired were less than diligent, leaving the boys to look after themselves,they ran wild in the streets or in a subsidized housing project.Each brother remembers being regularly attacked by other youngsters, most of them bigger and older. Richie Kilpatrick recalls hurling a brick at a boy who had tossed Ken to the ground and was pounding on him. The brick drew a gusher of blood and a series of reprisal ambushes. "We had kids climbing through the windows to get at us," Richie Kilpatrick recalled. "It was like being under attack. We had to close the windows and lock the doors."
NAPA, CALIFORNIA
When Ken was 5 Diane met a Army aviator named Bob Nance she remarried and they moved to Napa, California, Nance's hometown a community tucked in the scenic and prosperous wine country. But here, too, the boys felt like outsiders. They spoke in a Georgia drawl and the kids made fun of them,the fighting continued.One of Ken's earliest memories is of his kindergarten teacher grabbing him and pulling him toward the Principal's office by his earlobe.Ken slugged the woman in the stomach, then sprinted to the classroom and locked the door, alone and seething. He was eventually extracted from his refuge, yelping and thrashing, and taken home.
The young stepfather tried to control the boys but was not equipped mentally or emotionally to handle the young boys.His new stepsons, rapidly approaching adolescence, were defiant young hellions. There were numerous late-night trips to the police station and hospital to pick up one or more of the boys. His lashings with both tongue and belt had an immediate but short-lived impact. "As soon as I'd leave, they'd go back to raising hell," he said. "So I'd come home and beat the crap out of them again."
(cont'd)
Ken left home the first time at age ten. He lived in an abandoned car with some other kids for a few days, subsisting on munchies he shoplifted from a local store. After being stabbed by an older kid, Ken wound up in the hospital. Doctors contacted youth justice officials and Shamrock found himself in juvenile hall for the first time. He remembers the lock-up as oddly relaxing. "I didn't mind it. Compared to home, it was quiet and rather peaceful.""
As well as:
"In practice one afternoon, Kenny hoisted another wrestler on his shoulders and prepared to drop him. Suddenly the foam-rubber wrestling mat slipped below his feet. Kenny toppled to the floor with his opponent's weight collapsing across his head and neck. There was a snap, and Kenny was rushed to the hospital with two fractured vertebraes.The surgeons screwed a metal halo into his skull to keep his spine from shifting.
They told him there should be no strenuous activity for a year and no contact sports ever again. Kenny set out to prove them wrong. Within two months, he was lifting weights,playing basketball,EVEN FOUGHT AND BEAT ANOTHER BOY WHO WEIGHED 100 LBS. MORE THAN Ken all while the HALO WAS STILL EMBEDDED IN HIS SKULL AND THE BREAKAGE IN HIS NECK. The long weeks in the halo, did nothing to slow Kenny or numb his animal drive to play, to compete, to prevail..."
(Read the whole thing up at http://www.thegr8wwffed.f2s.com/anklelock/bio.html)
On top of this, if you researched a little about their ADULT lives, you would also realize that Ken has been in numerous unsanctioned tough mans, bar fights and street scraps, while the only one Royce has been in is when he stomped a small, twelve year old one-legged French kid named Pepe (alright, alright, just kidding here ;)).
Also, any mixed martial artist with half a brain will tell you that you do not want to fight from your back on the street, which is Royce's only weapon against Ken (he simply cant strike with Shammy like he did with Yoshida). If your on top, like Ken always is against Royce, you can grind your oppenents head against hard concrete while expending virtually no energy, and Kens punches would hurt Royce enen more because the asphalt offers no give. Takedowns and slams could be catastrophic for Royce.
So, in the street department, once again, UNDENIABLE EDGE TO KEN SHAMROCK.
-THE BOTTOM LINE: Anytime after their rematch, the damage Royce would receive in a fight from Ken continually grows like an exponential function. Ken over the guard-flopping Gracie in the ring or cage, and ESPECIALLY on the street.
A lot of you are saying "who cares?" and so on and while it is true that Ken and Royce are no longer the best fighters in the world, they WERE once at the top, and it is important not to forget the history of our sport, which these two fighters carved singlehandedly (props to both), a big reason why they are the two charter members of the UFC Hall of Fame.
Thoe ONLY advantage Royce EVER had over Ken is that nobody was familiar w/ BJJ back then. Even by their second fight Ken really hadn't had much time to train in and against BJJ. Ken was also a ground fighter so the strategy he used was to go to the ground, stay in guard, and control/pound. Ken was the first to do this, and really was treading new territory. Later Mark Kerr would employ the same strategy against Fabio Gurgel. Many other wrestlers would also use this stategy against BJJ guys. Some were better or worse at it than Ken. By the time Ken fought Brian Johnston it was clear that his ground and pound had become alot more dangerous. Royce would have got pummeled badly if he was under Ken on that day.....
This is all moot since ten years have past and Ken has evolved a great deal while Royce simply hasn't. Royce's ONLY advantage (nobody knows BJJ) is no longer a factor. Ken and everybody else has had 10 years to learn BJJ attack and defense. Ken is still stonger, larger, heavier, and a MUCH better athlete. Royce never was athletic, fast, or explosive. He simply knew something everyone else didn't. Times have changed. Royce is still a helpless girl on the feet and Ken has KO power there. Ken has a sprawl that Royce's weak takedowns can't get through. Royce won't submit Ken, he couldn't last time and he hasn't submitted ANYBODY since then. He won't be wearing a gi on the street either. Royce eats punches 'till he bleeds and drops.The whole thing is over in under 2 minutes on the street.
As for this little tidbit:
"No JD, I'm sure Ken walks around naked on the street to avoid getting choked with his own shirt."
Have you ever seen what Ken wears (to go along with the chops) when on the street? Those muscle shirts would tear very easily in a streetfight, Im sure Ken would tear them by just flexing his traps.
Bobazee, you are correct my friend, especially about this:
"By the time Ken fought Brian Johnston it was clear that his ground and pound had become alot more dangerous. Royce would have got pummeled badly if he was under Ken on that day....."
As well as this: "He won't be wearing a gi on the street either. Royce eats punches 'till he bleeds and drops.The whole thing is over in under 2 minutes on the street."