Kid Peligro say's

Underground BJJ Ground
21

HoldYerGround -  Oh Gracie Jiu-Jitsu self defense? Is that the one where you adopt an unagressive defensive strategy to save energy?

Those sport JJ guys are really boring though!


Is that strategy meant for every self defense situation? Or do they mean that against much bigger, stronger and more aggressive opponents? I don't know much about Gracie Combatives, and this was something I'm curious about.

22

So what happens when a combatives guy gets in half guard?

I agree that most bjj has become too sporty, but that is just an adaptation to the rules of competition. Until more sub only tournaments popup, most people will play to the rules.

23

Judo Scott - 12, I beat combatives guys with simple closed guard techniques or simple guard passes to side control to mount.

They simply don't have any mat awareness. There's no need to do anything fancy (ie spider guard) to beat them.


But that's not comparing like for like. Combatives is a self defence program, where by the end, the student should be able to defend themselves against an unskilled attacker of equal size. Now as I understand it, after the Combatives program, GA students move onto more "regular GJJ/BJJ", where they learn all the stuff the rest of us do. A better basis for comparison therefore would be to look at a GA purple, and look at their game and mat awareness.

To me a lot of what's being talked about here is what a blue belt is, just as much as the Combatives and self defence as a whole. For a start, what criteria tips a student from being a good white belt into a blue belt. Remember we're talking about that time here, not the blue belt who's nearly a purple, but a brand new box fresh blue. What should that guy be able to do? The GA standpoint seems to be that he should be able to look after him/herself in a fight. That's it. Everything after that really isn't self defence, it's jiu-jitsu vs jiu-jitsu, which is a different game entirely.

James

24

Sir Taps, combatives students have zero grappling awareness and they have a Brazilian jiu jitsu blue belt on their waist. Its a travesty IMO.

25

Judo Scott - Sir Taps, combatives students have zero grappling awareness and they have a Brazilian jiu jitsu blue belt on their waist.


Again, that's my point - they're not learning BJJ or grappling, they're learning self defence, which are entirely 2 different things. That blue belt isn't a BJJ belt as we know it, it's a belt in Gracie Self Defence. I seriously think you have to separate those 2 things out in this case. Now as for the question of pure self defence training over fully resistive training and which is more effective... now that's a whole other story.

James

26

interesting discussion. i'm a lowly purple but i tend to agree with the idea that a lot of bjj has become too sporty in nature. bjj at its core is a martial art and i think a lot of people have lost sight of that. when you start going too far down the rabbit hole (ie developing your style to game the sport rules) you start developing techniques and strategies that will get you killed when there are punches involved. which is fine...as long as people are knowledgable about what is and is not viable in each situation. the problem occurs when a student of a more sport oriented bjj school gets a false sense of security thinking they are hot shit in this "martial art" only to find that the martial art they were studying doesn't address the problems created by a simple punch.

at the end of the day the vast majority of the techniques we learn are for dealing with problems created by skilled opponents. in a self defense situation all you really need are the very basics. a takedown, passing the "guard" if you will, advancing to mount/back, staying there, and then possibly a basic submission like a head and arm or rnc.

and to be honest with you...i don't think anybody needs to be wearing a blue belt that can't at the very least clinch and take someone down that is throwing punches without getting killed. i don't care how good they are on the mat.

27

Sober - ...

and to be honest with you...i don't think anybody needs to be wearing a blue belt that can't at the very least clinch and take someone down that is throwing punches without getting killed. i don't care how good they are on the mat.



I agree Sober. When I studied ( and still do from time to time ) the combatives program it really filled in a huge gap that I had. The sad fact is most students don't want to know it. All they care about is how to beat someone starting from the knees in class.

28

Honestly after years of fighting, teaching, and training find students who are in good shape and used to going live do well in self defense situations. Whether he does more sport BJJ or more self defense. If you can handle live aggression and pressure an unskilled opponent is much easier to deal with. None of my students or myself that have got into street situations pull half guard and dive for a tornado sweep. Basic BJJ sport oriented or not give you a big advantage. Its not like an untrained opponent is sprawling well against take downs or has a great base on the ground. Sport BJJ is not the best self defense or anywhere near it but general grappling skills combined with being in good shape and used to being in battles on the mat account for alot.

29

Sober - i don't think anybody needs to be wearing a blue belt that can't at the very least clinch and take someone down that is throwing punches without getting killed. i don't care how good they are on the mat.


Totally agree with you on that. I think any blue should be able to look after themselves in a 1 on 1 fight with an opponent of equal size. GJJ... BJJ... doesn't matter. The fundamental fight philosophy remains the same - cover up, clinch, takedown, mount etc. Every blue should be able to execute that.

James

30

I've said it before. Gracie Combatives has single-handedly renewed my interest in bjj. Why? Because of the quality of instruction and the fact that they stress the basic fundamentals from a fighting perspective(strikes) that starts standing and does not make use of the gi.

Is bjj the most complete form of self-defense available? Absolutely not. Are the Gracies going to teach me how to adequately defend myself against weapons and mass attacks? Hardly. But what they do offer is to teach the average person how to maintain base(balance/clinch) on their feet and not panic when crowded, rushed, or taken to the ground in bully type 'fights'. And it's those basics that stay with people in self-defense situations more than the number of techniques they know or the amount of mat time and competition trophies they've acquired. I mean it's fighting and self-defense we're talking about here, not the controlled environments of a gym or competitive sport, so the differences in 'mat awareness' between persons of the same belt level are irrelevant. Why? Because even if a Combatives guy only ever does the drills and rote techniques, if he's still able to defend himself via muscle memory then it doesn't matter if he gets smoked by the 'average' bluebelt from a reputable school who's spent more time on the mat to develop timing, setups, and/or counters to what the Combatives guy knows. He's still used the basics to defend himself and that's all Helio ever said is required to be awarded a bluebelt.

31

I tend to disagree that mat time and competition do not equate to as much muscle memory as simple drilling. They both do and doing moves under pressure and stress helps build that especially in comparison to the amount of stress a fight presents. Sport BJJ and competition alone don't do it but they help give students more confidence and how to deal with real resisting opponents even if not it a street figh

32

Judo Scott - 12, I beat combatives guys with simple closed guard techniques or simple guard passes to side control to mount.

They simply don't have any mat awareness. There's no need to do anything fancy (ie spider guard) to beat them.



r you saying you tap them in a minute or put them in a bad position.

33

Serafin - I tend to disagree that mat time and competition do not equate to as much muscle memory as simple drilling. They both do and doing moves under pressure and stress helps build that especially in comparison to the amount of stress a fight presents. Sport BJJ and competition alone don't do it but they help give students more confidence and how to deal with real resisting opponents even if not it a street figh

I'm not saying either are unimportant. They certainly are, and the more experience a person has rolling live against noncompliant/skilled opponents the more natural the movements become and they better they get. But they're irrelevant as far as the belt and self-defense arguments go for or against Combatives. If a person can defend themselves via the Combatives training model(and they certainly have, especially LE/Miltary personnel without the luxury of extensive training/experience), then Combatives has proved its worth and people have earned their belts as far as Helio's standards are concerned.

34

Honestly I like Kid a lot I think hes a great asset to BJJ but I personally feel this article is bullshit. Not everyone gets into BJj for self defense. My best friend who also happens to be my instructor got me into training by showing me videos of marcelo garcia at adcc. I was blown away by his transitions and submissions. I could give a crap about self defense. I don't go out looking for fights and even though I only train sport if you tell me that I cant defend myself because I dont train that way is stupid. I don't have to be told by my instructor if I'm attacked in the street to not play inverted de la riva (but in rolling/competing its effective and fun). But I will try my best to get the guy to the ground and control him. Also good luck defending yourself in a street fight I haven't seen many one on one fights in the street.

Just my 2 cents

35

I havent seen a lot of street fights period esp since highschool

@12 - I tap them very quickly. The first time I rolled with one I was a 2 stripe blue. I'd say maybe it was exp difference but our 3 stripe white belts have no problem with them either. Please understand I am not saying its a pointless program, its not, I love it... but they are not blue belts IMO and putting a blue belt on them is wrong.

36

I think the value of a blue belt is being tremendously overinflated in this discussion. IMO white to no stripe blue is BJJ 101, a basic introduction to the positions, concepts, and strategies of the art. The Combatives course covers that pretty well, and I don't have a problem with awarding the blue if they can pull off those techniques against resisting opponents. Blue to purple is another story and I think the points everyone is making against it would fit better in that belt range, and I would agree if that were the case. Helio's standards are being met for getting the blue belt. I don't think he put quite as much value to blue belts as we do here in America.

37

Judo Scott - I havent seen a lot of street fights period esp since highschool

@12 - I tap them very quickly. The first time I rolled with one I was a 2 stripe blue. I'd say maybe it was exp difference but our 3 stripe white belts have no problem with them either. Please understand I am not saying its a pointless program, its not, I love it... but they are not blue belts IMO and putting a blue belt on them is wrong.



i understand what your say'n ,i like these conversations.
when these guys start wearing purple belts and this shit happends ,that would be reason for concern.

38

Lol, at sport jiujitsu guys not being able to get out of a headlock against a person on the streets that probably does not know any grappling to begin with. Phone Post

39

Judo Scott - Sir Taps, combatives students have zero grappling awareness and they have a Brazilian jiu jitsu blue belt on their waist. Its a travesty IMO.

No offence Judo Scott, but unless you have the years of expirence the instructors who are doing the promoting, your opinion means shit. When I got my purple belt, there was moments of self doubt about my skills, but I had to defer to my instructor and his 20 plus years of bjj expirence. If he thinks I'm a purple belt, then I am a purple belt. The point is, I think the Gracie guys are more qualifed than me to say who is blue and so on. Also most people will never be above average at any belt level

40

I'm kind of getting to the point of agreeing with Kid. Why not teach first the most important and efficient self-defense stuff to white belts? And the sport BJJ schools should teach that stuff too - it's more efficient.

There's valid criticism about the Combatives graduates probably not having enough mat time to defend a blue belt against good schools. But then again Royce was known for that too - tossing out blue belts at seminars, but he's a lot tougher to get higher ranks out of. It looks like beyond blue with their Master Cycle there's going to be a lot more requirements and it should be harder to get a purple belt. If they grade free rolling too and provide feedback it should be even better.

It's a tradeoff but it's all for spreading the art. They are reaching people traditional schools can't.

I think for me I'm into shoring up my combatives stuff along with advancing my game other ways.