Rahman didn't quit. He was asked if he could see, he said no. Doctor then waves off fight. Cut and vision problems were caused by a blatant head butt. Pretty obvious during the fight that he was having vision problems after the butt.
As an outside observer it's hard to know just how much the cut affected Rahman. I will say however that I've a shitload of fighters continue in similar circumstances while bleeding one hell of a lot more. Rahmans cut barely seemed to be bleeding. But again the only one for sure who knows how much it affected him is Rahman himself.
If Wlad avoids punches he's afraid. When other boxers do it it's great skill. The brothers were booed when they first arrived on the scene is the US. Strictly national origin prejudice.
Klitshko's would domintate him
the comments about the klitschko's was the only thing i could understand toney say
Toney versus Wlad would look pretty much the same as Byrd versus Wlad did.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wRUeFfaV-b8
Mighty Cthulhu - Toney versus Wlad would look pretty much the same as Byrd versus Wlad did.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wRUeFfaV-b8
agreed
nate787 - Bobbing and weaving, shoulder rolling, parrying is great skill. Running away and clutching every 2 punches is afraid. Wlad is afraid.
100% correct.
Wlad doesn't have the fire to really go after guys, and it's probably because he knows his chin is suspect. It's a shame, because he has the physical tools and the punching power to be a more exciting champion.
But he doesn't have the heart, and that's why he doesn't capture the imagination of boxing fans.
nate787 -sslt75 -
In his post fight interview he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. First he said he didn't quit, then he says "I'm not going to fight him with one eye". He tried to play the system and it backfired.
i was giving him the benefit of the doubt, until he said that. it became obvious that he was looking for a way out. and he was under the impression that if it ended there he would get a draw or no contest so he milked it and it backired
ttt
Mighty Cthulhu - Toney versus Wlad would look pretty much the same as Byrd versus Wlad did.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wRUeFfaV-b8
While either Klitscho brother would present horrible style matchups for Toney, and would be rightfully favored against him, I dont think you can compare Toney's style to Byrd's.
Chris was a leftie, who like to parry punches and back away from you while countering. James Toney was an orthodox boxer who liked to stay in the pocket and step into you with counters. Very different styles.
I agree that the defensive style is quite different, but the point is the same -- undersized, underpowered boxer with a lot of speed and technique does not match up well against the Klitschkos' pawing jab/tie up inside style. You can wait all day to counter against that style, but it isn't going to happen, you're just going to bleed points.
The Klitschkos have fared worst against powerful punchers with size. Against smaller, more defensive opponents, they are in their best matchup.
"Maybe not Vitali, but Wladimir is weak hearted. I've never seen a guy that big and strong so afraid to get hit."
Yeah right. Conventional wisdom is usually baseless. If he was so "afraid" to be hit he likely would not have been boxing as a full time job (literally) since he was a boy.
Afraid to get hit = UGers like us who don't get in there.
Fighting one's entire life for a living at the highest levels = about the furthest thing from being "afraid" of being hit that there can be.
I think he was looking for a way out, too. But it was obvious that the butt affected him as soon as it happened. Toney's punches started to land directly as a result of it. Legally by the rules, hasim was correct. His vision was impaired by the butt, not by a barrage of shots. I suspect that this will be ruled a NC eventually.
Now on to Toney calling out the Klitchko brothers. He stands no chance in hell vs. either of them. He doesn't hit hard enough to bother Vlad, and Vlad hits harder than anyone Toney has faced. Jab Jab R cross will keep Toney at a distance, negating any advantage on the inside that he has.
Have to see how Vitali looks coming back from his hiatus, but pre-retirement Vitali Ko's Toney in 6 or 7.
I'll take Toney over Wladimir "One Punch and Klinchko".
nate787 -
Cut stoppages are determined by the doctor - vision problems/stoppages are determined by the fighter. The doctor already looked at the cut and said the fight could continue so the stoppage from the headbutt was no longer and issue. Rahman telling him he couldn't see was the equivalent of telling him he couldn't continue - you don't have to use the exact words. In his post fight interview he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. First he said he didn't quit, then he says "I'm not going to fight him with one eye". He tried to play the system and it backfired.
In his post fight interview he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. First he said he didn't quit, then he says "I'm not going to fight him with one eye". He tried to play the system and it backfired.
/argument regarding Rahman/Toney.
I LOVE James Toney, but the sheer size advantage of the Klitschkos would give him all sorts of problems. Wlad would keep him out of range with his pawing jab and load up the right hands. I'd love to watch Toney outbox him, but he's 6" too short for me to see him having any success vs. Wlad.
I think Toney could hurt Wlad Klitscho if he caught him flush with one of his patented inside slip counters. He gets a great deal of added effect on his shots when he catches you rushing in on him. He's KO'd Holyfield and had Rahman & Ruiz buzzed a few times in their fights with him. I'd say anyone of these fighters' chins measure up to Wlad's.
Rahman started out with a good plan last night. He was jabbing at Toney's chest and neck area, which makes it harder for James to get inside of his reach, but the second he started headhunting, he was getting clowned on the counters.
You have to be very disciplined against Toney and not allow yourself to get caught up in his style of fight. You have to jab to his chest & body, throw a combo, then slide off of him and make him use those old legs to close in on you. You cant allow yourself to think because he's an old, fat middleweight that you can just steamroll him. He'll kill you with counters when you try to force your will upon him this way.
Samuel Peter actually did a great job adjusting against this in his 2nd bout with Toney. James looked bad but so did Peter because he appeared to be "running" away from the much smaller, lighter punching Toney. It was wise strategy but hard to watch for the average viewer.
"so he adopted a style taught to him by Manny Stewart where he throws a couple punches and then clutches, grabs, leans on/tackles the guy."
Right, and then KO's 90% of his opponents.
And I feel fine saying that anyone that does it for a living is not "scared". If they were so scared, they wouldn't do it. And in this instance, the man has a phd and millions of dollars. He has other options.
If people don't like him and are not fans, that's fine - they don't have to make up phony hateful reasons.
And for the record, John Ruiz doesn't have anything to be ashamed of either. No one has to appreciate the fact that he is a multiple time heavyweight champion, but they also can't take it away from him
As long as he steps in that ring I don't feel I have any reason to call him or any other fighter "afraid"
People throw tags of "fear" around like allegations. As if a normal human emotion is some kind of major weakness. Of course fighters get "afraid" but like everyone else, it's how they respond to that fear that matters.
I don't like to throw that tag around because everyone has fear and calling the people that fight despite those fears "scared" just makes no sense