Lyoto Machida: Old School Karate

Underground
21

e. kaye - 


People think that Shotakan is nothing but very linear back and forth punching and kicking.



 



That is because over the years many schools, especially in the US changed the art to simplify teaching and satisfy insurance companies.



In the  kata for instance, every turn is a throw.   But no one teaches it.



There are wrist locks and other ju jitsu attacks.  But no one teaches it.



There is so much more.  But much has been lost or not taught for various reasons.



My old teacher would occassionaly pull a technique on one othe black belt students that was so surprising and simple looking, yet shockingly effective that we would gasp.   And it was never taught to us.  



He was an 8th dan Japanese of the old JKA.


I trained under T. Mikame (8th dan Shotokan) and Mike Urpschot (3rd dan at the time, dunno if he's gone up since), both those guys were at least 2nd/3rd degree in judo and took great delight in launching us all over the place whenever we closed to clinch range. And this was on hard wood floors, not mats o_O

I remember going to a Tang Soo Do class to "cross train" at the same time (I was a teenager interested in spin kicks, alas for the folly of youth). The idea of grappling was as foreign to them as could be...

Curiously, many of the black belt level guys in the club I trained at were extremely aggressive, it's like they didn't know how to move backwards, LOL - so it fascinates me to see Machida's personal style of laying in wait and drawing/countering, I see all the same techniques but a totally different mindset/strategy...

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Hey Jack SLack, I absolutely love all of your articles. Since you're an expert on striking, what would successful okinawan karate look like in mma, specifically goju ryu or uechi ryu?

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NCar - Hey Jack SLack, I absolutely love all of your articles. Since you're an expert on striking, what would successful okinawan karate look like in mma, specifically goju ryu or uechi ryu?


Woah there :P definitely not an expert.



I think Goju and Uechi Ryu both utilize a lot of in close stuff which is pretty rudimentary compared to actual wrestling and judo. So I doubt the traditional techniques would be that effective.



But equally I would be FASCINATED to see a good toe kick in MMA. Genki Sudo went to train in Okinawa after he left MMA and wrote a book about it, apparently he asked someone to kick him in the stomach with the toe tips (an Uechi Ryu trademark and something they spend years developing) and apparently a light brush put him on the floor in agony.



If you could condition your toes the ridiculous amount that serious Uechi Ryu guys do, you could put people in agony. Imagine doing what Kikuno does to pro fighters, but worse.

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Jack, some have been looking at the Moussasi/Kyotaro fight (including your video) for some look at Machida/Moussasi and although Machida and Kyotaro may share some similarities in principle such as trying to draw guys in, they are still very different, right? Kyotaro is also not a Shotokan guy but some kind of Kyokushin offshoot stylist, isnt he?

I think you have mentioned that Machida is so far the sole Shotokan (traditional, ie, non-Kyokushin and offshoot to succeed in MMA. Are there really no other traditional guys in Kickboxing or MMA either at all? Perhaps Wonder Boy is the only other guy to have some level of success in MMA/Kickboxing? All others have come from those Kyokushin and offshoot for KB and MMA right? Hug, Filho, Feitosa, Musashi, Satake, Kido, Nori, GSP? I guess in the case of Chuck and the Hackleman Kenpo lineage, im not sure how much it changed in lineage but Chuck's is very MMA functional.

I suppose someone like Sakurai and that Shootbox Japanese stills stems from Japanese kickboxing/full contact karate.....

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In terms of Machida's sweeps and trips and throws, i think the proof is in the pudding when he has taken guys down in the clinch like Hendo and Tito and tripped a high level judo person like Nakamura. I think in the instances of Nakamura and Tito, they are good examples of catching guys off balance in transition from the striking attacks (same as the Thiago Silva trip) but in the case of Hendo, he had Hendo in a static over/under and still tossed him.

I think he should def use this to keep Moussasi off balance to mess up his timing.

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Jack Slack - 
NCar - Hey Jack SLack, I absolutely love all of your articles. Since you're an expert on striking, what would successful okinawan karate look like in mma, specifically goju ryu or uechi ryu?


Woah there :P definitely not an expert.



I think Goju and Uechi Ryu both utilize a lot of in close stuff which is pretty rudimentary compared to actual wrestling and judo. So I doubt the traditional techniques would be that effective.



But equally I would be FASCINATED to see a good toe kick in MMA. Genki Sudo went to train in Okinawa after he left MMA and wrote a book about it, apparently he asked someone to kick him in the stomach with the toe tips (an Uechi Ryu trademark and something they spend years developing) and apparently a light brush put him on the floor in agony.



If you could condition your toes the ridiculous amount that serious Uechi Ryu guys do, you could put people in agony. Imagine doing what Kikuno does to pro fighters, but worse.


I guess they fall in the same category as trapping from wing chun/ JKD. Although I do recall reading about a Japanese fighter successfully applying Goju, but I absolutely forget who he was.

Also, expert is just my opinion lol no offence meant :p.

27

pross - 


i think for those of us that have been into MMA since the start and really appriciate what it did to reveloutionize hand to hand combat(and mainly the exposeure of certian approaches to training my TMA), always feel a little salty hearing Machida labelled to as a "old school, or traditional martial artist". he can only pull that shit off becuase of his BJJ, MT, Wrestling etc.



 



I am not saying what he does is tom foolery or pure fluke bullshit, mmmmmm its fucking Salty


I get your point but its still one of the most redundant and circular arguements on the board. There is literally no fighter today that gets by on any single pure alone. Jacare is world champ in BJJ but also has a high level judo background and is now a pretty good striker. Weidman is a wrestler but picked up striking and BJJ crazy fast and in his fights with Anderson, he showed that he puts all those elements together - he does not fight just as wrestler. Wrestlers have been the most successful base but are nothing without their striking and BJJ training.

Machida is a black belt in BJJ and trains with other MMA strikers or kickboxers but clearly, his core strength and anchor of his fighting is his karate which as i think Jack clearly illustrates is still pulling from those traditional concepts. His tds are not also not of a wrestling centric nature, once again, as pointed out and imo pretty obvious, those trips are straight up karate coming in off his striking attacks. I come from judo and can tell you that since we dont go flying in at one another with strikes like that, the trips and footsweeps are pretty different in mechanics.

Also, Machida trains tdd like anyone else in MMA however, what separates him from others who are strong in tdd because of their wrestling is the fact that his range control (from karate) never lets his opponents get in td range. I dont think there is any wrong with referring to him as old school or traditional martial artist. Its still mashy semantics anyhow. Karate is still the main ingrediant to his success, no matter how many other spices are added to final dish.

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Btw, Jack, as for toe kicks, isnt Kikuno your guy for this in MMA with that crescent kick?

29

e. kaye - 


PS-I left the JKA after achieving Shodan partly for this reason.  Not learning anything new except for kata.



I then took JJJ, acheiving 2nd Dan and all of the JJ in Shotokan kata became apparent.



That's fascinating. Also interesting to see another way that kata could be useful there. VU.



Machida's takedowns always seem to come out of nowhere to those of us unfamiliar with karate; this breakdown is a big help.



I have Oyama's "Mastering Karate," and it's 100% takedown free other than one throw in the self defense portion.



Thank you for posting, Jack!

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This thread is excellent. Thanks Jack Slack!

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Jack slack > bs dtwm Phone Post 3.0

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Great thread Jack,


I have thought much about Shotokans own emphasis on combining throws,sweeps and strikes together. It is my belief that the Jigoro kano/Gichin Funakoshi connection had a lot more to do with it than most want to admit..

A lot of early karate and shotokan students where in fact judo practitioners. As a matter of fact, a case can be said for shotokan karate students first starting to do kumite (in japan) from a farther distance than what was normally seen before because of the threat of grabbing. Since a lot of early Shotokan practiconers (taking up karate) had already dabbled in some form of judo in japan,the mixing blend was only natural...

Using myself as a example, ( and Im really a nobody) I started training in Judo as a small child and after years of training in judo, I started training in Shotokan karate as a teenager...

At first, I really had no techniques at all for karate,except for really a good de-ashi-barai (foot sweep) lol and a couple of other good throws…….not really helpful and really not enough to do any sort of damage in karate,is what i first thought…..then someone showed me a reverse punch one day and boy did I practice this punch day and night…..After further training and while sparring one day..My de-ashi-barai magically appeared one day out of nowhere and my reverse punch soon followed there after, right after I had offbalanced my opponent…wallahhh

i did it basically "subconsciously" (without much thought) and now I had two techniques which I threw and combined together all there time, without much thought,because I had practice both extentsively...I had figured out a magical secret……I would sweep before and even after the punch and it worked miracles….


Now go back in time to when Shotokan first started being taught in all the universities around japan…how many judo practiconers do you think might have also ventured into taking a karate class?..Now how many former judo players (now converted karate fighters) do you think came to the same realization that i did ?

I think it just naturally blended together very well (judo+ shotokan) with a lot of people that had actually participated in both originally now doing shotokan…If you ever get the chance,read Jon Blumming autobiography about sparring in kyokushin (back in the early days) and how his judo impacted his karate interpretation tremendously …no different here…



My own traditional Japanese Shotokan sensei had done judo as a kid and he would literally kick and sweep you to death…It evolved so much into the nucleus of Shotokan karate that even Shotokan practiconers today that have never taken judo have reaped the benefits of what the hundreds of men before them naturally discovered by combining strike /sweep combos…Sure ,it then even became a core thought out strategy method within Shotokan.

A lot of people will point to the old okinawan katas for reference to grappling in shotokan but I truly believe that the japanese judo culture had more to do with it ,than any old okinawan kata might have…..I believe in giving credit where credit is really due...

33

Newaza freak - What boggles the mind more than anything else,is how most real ultra traditionalist ( who disdain even tournament karate)karate guy's are now jumping on the Machida Bandwagon..

Most of these "staunch traditionalist" have dowplayed the significance of tournament karate for years ,now want to jump on the Machida bandwagon ........

Regardles of what anyone tells me,Machida intuition to strike and even to throw is directly related to his experience with actually competing in tournaments and sparring in karate.


None of his actions or his suscess in the cage are really derived from some old mystic kata that most traditionalist would want you to believe is the reason.

As matter of fact Machida..uses alot fo training method's and training equipment that would not even be allowed in most traditional shotokan schools even today...

Good points.

34

Ttt great stuff Phone Post 3.0

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Newaza freak - Great thread Jack,


I have thought much about Shotokans own emphasis on combining throws,sweeps and strikes together. It is my belief that the Jigoro kano/Gichin Funakoshi connection had a lot more to do with it than most want to admit..

A lot of early karate and shotokan students where in fact judo practitioners. As a matter of fact, a case can be said for shotokan karate students first starting to do kumite (in japan) from a farther distance than what was normally seen before because of the threat of grabbing. Since a lot of early Shotokan practiconers (taking up karate) had already dabbled in some form of judo in japan,the mixing blend was only natural...

Using myself as a example, ( and Im really a nobody) I started training in Judo as a small child and after years of training in judo, I started training in Shotokan karate as a teenager...

At first, I really had no techniques at all for karate,except for really a good de-ashi-barai (foot sweep) lol and a couple of other good throws…….not really helpful and really not enough to do any sort of damage in karate,is what i first thought…..then someone showed me a reverse punch one day and boy did I practice this punch day and night…..After further training and while sparring one day..My de-ashi-barai magically appeared one day out of nowhere and my reverse punch soon followed there after, right after I had offbalanced my opponent…wallahhh

i did it basically "subconsciously" (without much thought) and now I had two techniques which I threw and combined together all there time, without much thought,because I had practice both extentsively...I had figured out a magical secret……I would sweep before and even after the punch and it worked miracles….


Now go back in time to when Shotokan first started being taught in all the universities around japan…how many judo practiconers do you think might have also ventured into taking a karate class?..Now how many former judo players (now converted karate fighters) do you think came to the same realization that i did ?

I think it just naturally blended together very well (judo+ shotokan) with a lot of people that had actually participated in both originally now doing shotokan…If you ever get the chance,read Jon Blumming autobiography about sparring in kyokushin (back in the early days) and how his judo impacted his karate interpretation tremendously …no different here…



My own traditional Japanese Shotokan sensei had done judo as a kid and he would literally kick and sweep you to death…It evolved so much into the nucleus of Shotokan karate that even Shotokan practiconers today that have never taken judo have reaped the benefits of what the hundreds of men before them naturally discovered by combining strike /sweep combos…Sure ,it then even became a core thought out strategy method within Shotokan.

A lot of people will point to the old okinawan katas for reference to grappling in shotokan but I truly believe that the japanese judo culture had more to do with it ,than any old okinawan kata might have…..I believe in giving credit where credit is really due...

 

It's interesting that you mention unexpected cross-over with Judo.

 

When I started BJJ a few years back guys kept telling me I had really good balance when they were trying to sweep me from DLR. I'd always get swept eventually but I was basically just stalling out in accidental long stances and trying to stay upright.

Of course, years of karate helped very little in transitioning to the ground game, but I thought that was a neat cross-over.

36

NF, is there more of the grappling techs (sweeps, trips, throws) in Shotokan than other karate styles?

The judo/karate cross over with sweeps and trips is interesting to me too coming from judo but then seeing how Machida does it and able to do it on guys such as Nakamura clearly is a strong case for using those transitions from closing the distance to close range/clinch. I think it would be relatively easy for a judo guy to adapt this type of technique but nobody really did.

In some of Karo's earlier UFC fights, he did flick his leg in typical judo style in the clinch but more out of instinct and to not much effect. Fedor actually used his momentum from closing the distance to throwing well but not with sweeps so much but with throws and doubles (in his 3rd fight with Nog and also with CC). Ronda uses ouchi's and kouchi's but more in typical judo style in tandem with her throws.

The only other judo guy ive seen use sweeps from farther range was briefly in Omigawa. I think his one fight with Jason Young. The first 2 here show him sweeping in conjunction with punching or before he is clinched.

Here is one from the clinch:

Its a shame Omigawa and judo guys in general i think didnt adapt more of their judo into the larger MMA game like Randy did with his greco into dirty boxing and using the clinch and the threat of the clinch into his generalship.

37

Similar to Hendricks tripping up GSP here using the momentum and simple leg block. I havent seen any other wrestlers use sweeps much outside of Randy vs I think Ricco and/or Josh (in the style we see here, ouchi garis have been used quite often by wrestlers and judokas).

38

In Shotokan the mechanics of 'how' you take a step forward are geared toward throwing, sweeping and disrupting your opponents stance.

39

hackett - 
e. kaye - 


PS-I left the JKA after achieving Shodan partly for this reason.  Not learning anything new except for kata.



I then took JJJ, acheiving 2nd Dan and all of the JJ in Shotokan kata became apparent.



That's fascinating. Also interesting to see another way that kata could be useful there. VU.



Machida's takedowns always seem to come out of nowhere to those of us unfamiliar with karate; this breakdown is a big help.



I have Oyama's "Mastering Karate," and it's 100% takedown free other than one throw in the self defense portion.



Thank you for posting, Jack!



My copy of Mastering karate (originally released under the name "What is karate") contains 5 throws/takedowns. All in the self defense section, and several joint locks that could easily be made into throws with minor modifications.  "This is karate" and "Advanced karate" contains many more (especially Advanced karate) shown as kata application and self defense application. Some, like Seoi Nage, are shown multiple times in several variations. Other books by him shows more.



Kibisu gaeshi, Ouchi otoshi, Ude Osae, Shiho nage, Koshi nage, Ura Nage, Osoto otosh, Kata guruma, Tsukomi goshi, kaiten nage. The list goes on and on. They are only show as applications without being named. Some are shown as close to judo/aikido versions, others are done in variations.



Not that many sweeps, but there are the occasional ashi barai too.



Early (60ies to 70ies) books by some of his students, like Bobby Lowe, adds more throws. Like Morote gari.



 



Oyama had a black belt in judo and a Menkyo kaiden (traditional teaching level license) in Aiki-jutsu before he founded kyokushin. Throws, jointlocks and newaza was nothing new to him, and he was fully aware of where the throws could be found in the karate kata.

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Gichin Funakoshi included several throws in his first book as examples of what hi karate (that eventually should be called shotokan) included.

 

Yes,it would have been better demos if the Uke had not been doing most of the work. But the point is that the throws was there.That these guys suck at thosse throws is another matter.

This playlist include slightly better versions, but divided into several vids.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL58132A40C937B4F2