Major Nation wide changes coming for ammy MMA?

Underground
21

Magnum TA - It sounds to me like you have a personal stake in this issue. Nothing I say will make you feel differently. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


If you are trying to say I profit off our ammy fighting, then the answer is I don't. This is a personal issue to me because I am very close to a lot of fighters. I am involved in helping fighters get ready for fights and many of those fighters are ammys. Most of these guys are wanting to go pro after a couple of fights well before they are ready. Me along with others in the gym are constantly trying to coach guys to stay ammys until they are truly ready to turn pro. By making these major rule changes, I am sure most will jump to pro immediately. This is a bad thing.

My only stake in the game is that I want what is best for the fighters in our gym and MMA as a whole. If I thought or saw evidence that there is a significant health risk that would be addressed by these rule changes, then I would be for it. I don't see the evidence. I don't give a shit about matchmakers or promotors. In fact, most that I have dealt with are shady and are pieces of shit.

You aren't changing my mind because I am closed minded on the issue. You aren't chaning my mind because you are not providing evidence and instead are basising your debate on "just because" arguments. I believe (and the evidence backs it up) that MMA is safe compared to other combat sports. I don't see that these rule changes will make it significantly more safe and I do think it will change ammy MMA to a point where it is more like kickboxing than MMA. I don't like that and think it is bad for the sport.

Fine, you don't think fighters should fight ammy for free while promotors make money. Then argue that they should get paid. These rule changes do not address that issue.

22

Magnum TA - "To comepletely alter ammy MMA so that it is nothing like pro MMA will not get them ready to fight pro."Some MMA legends have proven this wrong. Like I said every shooto great out of Japan did it already. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Some MMA legends have proven this wrong? That the best you have? Any non-legends that are still fighting? Anyone in the current era of MMA? How about the huge majority that have proven that working their way through ammy MMA then to the pros? The problem with MMA today is the ground game and the lack of understanding of what is going on. Changing ammy MMA to making it basically a ammy kickboxing match with takedowns will not address that problem.

23

<blockquote>Magnum TA - They are getting a free college education. Something many people in this world would love to have. What are amateur MMA fighters getting.....nothing <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/></blockquote>

True, they are getting a college degree (but guessing majority don't get a college education). Still the point still stands. College and pro football are fundamentally the same sport. College players put their bodies on the line in a sport that has more major injuries than MMA for no money while the colleges and companies make millions. If you don't like the fact that college players don't get paid, then talk about paying them vs talk about fundamentally changing the sport to flag football for their safety.

College flag football is not the answer. Ammy MMA with no strikes on ground, limited subs, headgear and shin pads, boxing gloves, and standing 8 counts are not the answer either.

24

Every good fighter you see from Japan past and present started out in shinpads and headgear as an amateur. Wrestlers are dominating MMA straight from the wrestling room with no ammy experience. This all disproves your theory that fighting under pro rules for free gives you better preparation. Phone Post

25

College football players also get money and vehicles under the table. Comparing it to amateur MMA is hilarious. Phone Post

26

Magnum TA - College football players also get money and vehicles under the table. Comparing it to amateur MMA is hilarious. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


What is hilarious is that you pick and chose little pieces of my argument and focus on that while ignoring my main points. As for college football, while I agree there is some players getting paid, they are in the minority. For every USC or Miami football team, there are 10+ smaller schools that don't pay their players a dime. You really think people at the small Jucos and Division 2 and 3 schools are getting paid let alone at most of the other NCAA schools? It is only the top guys at the top schools that are getting anything under the table.

The analogy still stands.

Show me that there is a legitimate health and safety risk in ammy MMA that will be greatly improved by the rule changes, and then we can talk. As it stands now, I don't think their is evidence to make these changes they make ammy and pro MMA fundamentally different. Just making them different to make them different is not a good enough reason for me.

27

Magnum TA - Every good fighter you see from Japan past and present started out in shin pads and headgear as an amateur. Wrestlers are dominating MMA straight from the wrestling room with no ammy experience. This all disproves your theory that fighting under pro rules for free gives you better preparation. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Right and there are very very few Japanese fighters that actually are anywhere near the top of the rankings in MMA. Again, the fact that they wear head gear and pads over there is not a legitimate reason that we should do it here. If there is a safety issue in the US then fine, but because someone else does it is not a good enough reason.

As for wrestlers, there are many that go straight to pro, but most still start as ammys. It is the highest level wrestlers that have been wrestling for 15+ years before they ever step into the cage that can make the transition to pro MMA. Those guys are the exception because they are such great athletes and the marital art they have been training all their lives prepares them very well for the rules of MMA as they stand now.

My point is not that ammys fighting for free is with similar rules to the pros gives you better preparation. My argument is that watering down ammy MMA with all these rules without any real need to do so will hurt an average fighter's preparation and will cause a lot of people to turn pro before they are ready. While some high level wrestlers (and others) may do ok to just go straight to pro, most would be better off with a few (or many) ammy fights before they go pro.

28

Any fighter fighting under pro rules with no safeguards has the chance to get hurt/take a beating. I had a friend who got the left of his face shattered in a fight where he got paid $300 and no medical compensation. He was in debt for a very long time as a result. Every beating you take shortens your fighting career. There should no chance of this in amateur fighting. Yushin Okami is fighting for the UFC title and he started out in headgear and shinpads. None of this matters because you have your mind made up. Probably for financial reasons. Phone Post

29

As Anthony already said "Ammy MMA is supposed to be there for fighters to learn the basics and not get hurt in making their decision." If you don't think fighters get hurt under pro rules then you are lost and none of us can help you. Phone Post

30

AnthonySullivan - 
liquidsoul - That's how ammy mma should have been all along.

 ^ this

Things should be just like ammy boxing.  Ammy MMA is supposed to be there for fighters to learn the basics and not get hurt in making their decision.  I don't see why any fighter would have a problem with this.  He shouldn't be out there getting KO'd for no pay just so some Missouri promoter can make money.

By the time many of these good ammy fighters are making their pro debuts they're already shot from having too many ammy wars.  Right now there's really no difference between the two and there should be.  Only people making a buck off ammy fighting should have a problem with making it safer.


A few questions for you though.

Is there a significant risk of injury in ammy fights that I don't know about? I have been to 100+ ammy fights and I have not seen a significant injury. I have seen more injuries in BJJ tournaments and high school football games than ammy MMA. The research on MMA injuries shows that it is one of the safeest combat sports out there. If there is a significant issue, then maybe something needs to be done, but I don't see it. As for your thought that many of this good ammy fighters go pro that they are already shot, I don't buy it. I have never seen it in my personal dealing with ammy fighters that have gone pro and like I said, I haven't seen any major injuiries in ammy fights so doubt many are shot by the time they go pro. Maybe there is a bigger issue that I just haven't seen.

Let's say their is an issue though. If you really want to make it different than pro MMA and are thinking of fighter safety, why not take out head strikes entirely? Let's make it a sub grappling match (under IBJJF white belt rules) and allow body punches. Sound good? That will really help avoid injury and make it different from pro MMA since that seems to be so important. That way we can avoid head gear since I content that it will make grappling very difficult and maybe also get rid of shin guards. The standing 8 count wouldn't likely be an issue with these rules either.

just a thought.

31

Btw, Do you put on amateur fights/make money from them? Phone Post

32

Magnum TA - Any fighter fighting under pro rules with no safeguards has the chance to get hurt/take a beating. I had a friend who got the left of his face shattered in a fight where he got paid $300 and no medical compensation. He was in debt for a very long time as a result. Every beating you take shortens your fighting career. There should no chance of this in amateur fighting. Yushin Okami is fighting for the UFC title and he started out in headgear and shinpads. None of this matters because you have your mind made up. Probably for financial reasons. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


You also have you mind made up so we are getting no where. I am asking you to provide the data and you are giving me one or 2 examples. Sure there is risk of getting hurt, but I content that it is rare. Sure there is a Japanese fighter in the UFC that started out under their rules but logic does not follow that is a reason to comepletely change our rules here.

Again, I am willing to consider rule changes if you show me that data that supports the need to change the rules. My understanding is that the data isn't there. Prove me wrong and I will listen.

33

Magnum TA - Btw, Do you put on amateur fights/make money from them? <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


No, as I said in a previous post. I do not put on pro or ammy fights and I do not profit off of fighters. I train for the fun of it. I have grappled in headgear and found it to really interfer with the grappling aspect of MMA. With that said, if there was data to show it is needed, then I would consider it. If you are so interested in safety, then I think a conpromise would be to outlaw all strikes to the head. Then the fighters are safer and they don't have to wear head gear that will interfer with grappling.

34

We have already proved you wrong. The problem is that refuse to listen. Other places have used these rules and proven that they work very well in safety and preparation of MMA fighters. Safety should be paramount first and foremost just like it is amateur boxing. The reason we can only cite Japanese competitors is because Japan the only place that has a regulated amateur circuit. The bottom is that it works and you need to admit that before you say anything else. Phone Post

35

This interview with Dana White xums it up pretty well.

Dana White on amateur MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SN78kHxJU

36

Magnum TA - We have already proved you wrong. The problem is that refuse to listen. Other places have used these rules and proven that they work very well in safety and preparation of MMA fighters. Safety should be paramount first and foremost just like it is amateur boxing. The reason we can only cite Japanese competitors is because Japan the only place that has a regulated amateur circuit. The bottom is that it works and you need to admit that before you say anything else. <img src="/images/phone/post_tag.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Where is the "proof?" I am willing to listen, but saying they do it in Japan is not proof. Please provide a link to the studies on ammy MMA and their injury rates then we can talk on what rule changes make sense.

37

I can't make you believe what you don't want to dude. You are going to have accept the changes. The fact that these changes are being pushed shows you what a fool you are on this subject. You can refuse to listen all you want but people who are educated in the sport will overule you on it. If there is a safer version that still serves the purpose of amatuer fighting it will come to pass and there is nothing you can do about it other than whine on this forum. Get ready for headgear and shinpads in American amatuer MMA because it is safer and it works. Even me and Dale Cook agree on this subject and we never agree on anything else.

38

Magnum TA - This interview with Dana White xums it up pretty well.

Dana White on amateur MMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SN78kHxJU


Watched this and I don't disagree with his general message, but a few things are off.

1) At least from what I have seen, the ammy and pro MMA is both under the same state athletic commissions so I don't know how you can get knocked out as an ammy and fight the next week as White is saying. If that happening, then that is a problem with the athletic commissions. The same athletic commission that is over seeing the pros. That not an ammy issue, that is a commission issue.

2) Fighters shouldn't be fighting without insurance. If someone is putting on a show, then the promotion should by law be forced to carry their medical insurance. Should be the same for ammy and pro.

3)Dana wants ammy MMA under the Olympic commission? OK, I guess that an option, but if the individual states commissions are going a good enough job for pro fighters, then why aren't they also providing the same level for the ammy fighters? Again, this is not an ammy issue, this is a state commission issue.

Yes, fighter safety is important, but let's look at the areas that need to be improved and start there. I have already said that they should consider paying ammy's, do a better job of matchmaking, and keep working on improving the quality of the refs. If there is a real issue with head trauma, then let's consider options.

I think it is pretty well known that one of the reasons MMA is safer than boxing is because boxing has heavier gloves and standing 8 counts that ends up in more head trauma than what you see in MMA. I would contend that making those rule changes would make ammy MMA less safe. Another reason MMA is safer than boxing is you can win via subs instead of striking. Making the grappling part of MMA more difficult by adding shin pads and head gear and limiting subs could also conceivably make ammy MMA less safe instead of more safe.

Again, if we really worried about ammy safety, let's do away with any strikes to the head. I think that is a reasonable compromise if there is a real issue in ammy MMA. If there isn't, then don't change the rules in the cage, but make sure the promoters and commissions look out for the fighters.

39

"I have already said that they should consider paying ammy's."

If you are paid that automatically makes you a professional.

"Making the grappling part of MMA more difficult by adding shin pads and head gear and limiting subs could also conceivably make ammy MMA less safe instead of more safe."

Don't you think they would have figured this out in Japan after putting on fights like this for 15 years? If it was less safe they would not be doing it. Shooto is easily the most strict organization in the world both amateur and pro.

"Again, if we really worried about ammy safety, let's do away with any strikes to the head."

Now you are basically agreeing with us. It took you long enough.

40

Magnum TA - I can't make you believe what you don't want to dude. You are going to have accept the changes. The fact that these changes are being pushed shows you what a fool you are on this subject. You can refuse to listen all you want but people who are educated in the sport will overule you on it. If there is a safer version that still serves the purpose of amatuer fighting it will come to pass and there is nothing you can do about it other than whine on this forum. Get ready for headgear and shinpads in American amatuer MMA because it is safer and it works. Even me and Dale Cook agree on this subject and we never agree on anything else.


All I am asking you for in the data that helped you come to your conclusions. I am not asking you to word your argument in a way to change may mind, I am asking you to provide the info you have that caused you to form your views so I can deside for myself. I have seen the research on MMA injuries. I train with fighters. I am saying that I don't see the rational for the changes and also know this isn't something the fighters are asking for. Yes they want insurance and want a little money, but don't know any that want to put on head gear, have standing 8 counts, and be told they can't strike on the ground. I am sure some fighter will welcome the change, but don't think they are in the majority.

Humor me just once and answer one of my questions directly. If you are worried about safety, then wouldn't taking out all strikes to the head be the best thing? Would you be for this? If not, then why?