Marcelo on Judo vs Wrestling

 

He's absolutely right and dont think it should that revelatory in 2011 - and I only say that because any common sense statement turns into a storm on the UG.

Even if you havent really done both judo and wresetling (I happened to have done both), its not hard to see that wrestling techniques are easier to transition to gi-comp than vice versa. Take the tech that Marcelo just showed. Of course , in wrestling you usu try not to fall onto your back in the way he showed but the main thing is that over/under grip or position. This can also occur in judo but its much more common to have the lapel and sleeve grip which in turn, is obviously not as universal as the over/under.

BJJ or newaza in the gi is also less reliant on the gi than gi-technique throws in judo because there is much more room to tug/pull/torque your opponent in the standing position with the gi than on the ground.

Im sure this will lead to a debate of some sort but i dont think you can argue that wrestling techs (ie. no gi takedowns) are much easier to translate to gi-comp than vice versa.

 4 l8er

 I agree in that wrestling transitions better for gi and no gi, but some judo definitely has it's place in no-gi.



At our gym we are often visiting by judo olympian travis stevens and he more than competently applies his judo to no-gi.

 Initial reaction is, "He's right. Good explanation on his opinion etc." THEN I think "This is gonna be 30 pages long with dumbfucks arguing what's better, wrestling or judo."

Chris -  I agree in that wrestling transitions better for gi and no gi, but some judo definitely has it's place in no-gi.

At our gym we are often visiting by judo olympian travis stevens and he more than competently applies his judo to no-gi.


And like cyclops said sorta, thats where the storm will begun imo. Its not that judo cannot be transitioned to no-gi, its that easier to transition wrestling to gi because you are essentially still doing the same thing.

From gi-judo to no-gi "judo" or techniques from judo, there is still some adjustment to be made with the loss of the gi grips. The degrees of difficulty in those transitions will vary but if "adapting" a wrestling tech to judo or gi-BJJ, its less of a transition because you are stil doing it the same way you would do in wrestling largely.

Haha, just thought of something to muddy the waters though a bit - there is still some adjustment to be made from wrestling to judo for example in doing a single leg. In judo, you can be countered easier to an uchimata because of the gi.

But in general, i dont think anyone can argue that wrestling transitions easier to gi than vice versa.

Also, ive said it a hundred times but the reason that I think Karo did so well with judo in MMA is that he had been doing MMA alongside Judo forever. Most of the other judo guys that came in basically already had a career in judo THEN started MMA. Karo was doing both at the same time from a very young age.

Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.

A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi).

Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you.

agreed with Wasa-B

as for the 30 pages of UG gobbledygook . I think any technical discussions going forward on the UG MUST be attached to at least 10 videos of the poster's competitive matches that way we know they're not just keyboard warriors who have never competed, much less trained.

A good Judoka knows throw variations that can be used without the gi. Karo Parisian is a good example of this.

If a person competes Gi and no gi he would only be better if he learn some Judo Type throws.

If you are only doing MMA or no gi of coarse you are not going to spend a lot of time using Judo type throws.

Eddie Huerta - A good Judoka knows throw variations that can be used without the gi. Karo Parisian is a good example of this.


What do you mean by "good judoka"?

ArthurKnoqOut - agreed with Wasa-B

as for the 30 pages of UG gobbledygook . I think any technical discussions going forward on the UG MUST be attached to at least 10 videos of the poster's competitive matches that way we know they're not just keyboard warriors who have never competed, much less trained.


ive got no vids myself and have only competed at local/regional levels for both. I'll give another good example though. Its similar to the difference i was talking about between a harai-goshi in judo and a hip toss in wrestling/no-gi. If you look at Kosei Inoue's uchimata in judo, he was hard to stop with it because his entry occured further away from the opponent than what a whizzer or over/under allows. See the vid below. He uses the standard lapel grip with his right hand on his opponent's chest. You obviously cannot grip that area in wrestling/no-gi. You obviously cannot pull your opponent to yourself as much without that kind of a grip either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAkTChZi7WA

Now look at this uchimata from Inoue against Nicolas Gill in the finals of the Sydney Games. He doesnt even make much contact with Gill's upperbody. That type of tech of course in the way Inoue does it is virtually impossible without a gi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6ecF8DfAd0

I will say that Karo has pulled off some picture perfect stuff that I never expected to see in MMA. Like this throw on Burkman.


Next time I am on the beach and I get into an altercation, I will make sure to use wrestling. If I get into an altercation in NYC tomorrow, I will do uchimata and most likely kill the assailant.

l8r

JuDoK@ - Next time I am on the beach and I get into an altercation, I will make sure to use wrestling. If I get into an altercation in NYC tomorrow, I will do uchimata and most likely kill the assailant.


lol

4lata Phone Post

Dong Hyun Kim had some good judo throws in the UFC too. Judo throws are the most exciting way to knock your opponent down imo.

Wasa-B - 
Eddie Huerta - A good Judoka knows throw variations that can be used without the gi. Karo Parisian is a good example of this.


What do you mean by "good judoka"?



I would say any Judoka BB from a good lineage. My instructor for example trained at the kodokan and uses a very traditional Curriculum.

What a lot of people don't realize is there is a lot more techniques in Judo than you see in tournements.

Many of the techniques are deemed too dangerous to be practiced in compitition. And there are a lot of self defence techs that you dont see in tournys.

I actually learned some no gi takedowns in my first self defence class as a white belt.

The Self defence techs are part of what you need to know as you progress in rank and a good instructor will teach no gi takedowns to be used on the street.

judo and wrestling as one....

Funny thing is that the takedown Marcelo shows is a judo version of judo throw (yoko wakare) and not the wrestling version (lateral drop).