Koga - Funny thing is that the takedown Marcelo shows is a judo version of judo throw (yoko wakare) and not the wrestling version (lateral drop).
I noticed this too!
Koga - Funny thing is that the takedown Marcelo shows is a judo version of judo throw (yoko wakare) and not the wrestling version (lateral drop).
Marcelo is talking about his experience competing against other world class grapplers and bjj practioners.
This is a whole lot different than hitting a judo throw on your buddy in your bjj class.
He's always said that if you have limited time in stand up practice, it's more beneficial to concentrate on double and single leg takedowns than judo throws- even for gi grappling.
In his experience, only very high level judo players are able to consistently take down their opponents with judo moves.
How is this to be debated? I'm pretty sure he has logged in more time competing at the ADCC or black belt world championship level than most people.
Sure, you can point out someone like Karo and Rhonda Rousey...but those are exactly the type of people that Marcelo said could use their judo in grappling tournaments- very high level judo competitors.
kying418,
I wouldn't say that. Ronda and Karo are standard examples of European Style of Judo. People get surprised that this works so well no-gi, but it is non-surprising. The EU Judo style is VERY different than the Japanese style which people usually associate with Judo.
I would even say that the EU style is more about wrestling than a lot of pure freestyle wrestling you see. Really, its almost a different sport than Japanese Judo.
However, I agree with Marcelo that if you have 1 hour a week to train takedowns, just learn a basic single or a double and that is about it.
Really, I think many people here do not understand that Judo is so rich, so many countries participate, that the styles are VASTLY different. Many are much closer to wrestling than Japanese Judo.
Take Chidaoba for instance, the Georgian native style. Many of the USSR champions in wrestling and Judo come from Chidaoba, including Iliadis, perhaps the greatest modern Judoka alive.
This style is VERY VERY FAR from Japanese Judo: the grips are different, the throws are different, the leg position is different, the techniques are different, the philosophy is different. In Brazil for instance, they teach the classic Japanese Judo and many of their players are well schooled in the traditional style. But again, this is vastly different than the Georgian style (Gokor comes from a style of Judo for instance that is very close to Chidaoba).
In fact, BJJ is much closer to traditional Japanese Judo than Georgian style of Judo, which really is basically wrestling.
However, most people on the UG are vastly unfamiliar with the different styles of Judo, so what they call Judo is usually Japanese Judo.
Judom- thanks for the insight and comment- very interesting stuff about judo.
I use a combo thai style/wrestling/judo takedown game. I think you can pull techniques from both judo and wrestling that work for you.
Judo is a sport that requires wearing a gi. No gi judo is an oxymoron; it is essentially then the same thing as freestyle/folkstyle wrestling when it comes to how you would execute throws
<blockquote>Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.<br /><br />A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi). <br /><br />Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you. <br /></blockquote><br /><br />Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi.I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.<br />
Your Arsonist -Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.
A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi).
Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you.
Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi. I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.
whoabro,
its not the same. The reason is that in general, the gi', just like on the ground in BJJ, makes you a much better standup grappler as well. The gi' allows you to develop a feel that no-gi does not and it develops better upper body control than no-gi wrestling does. Let me say this: if you are well versed in stand-up gi' grappling in certain styles, you will be a great freestyle wrestler, the reverse is not true.
In fact, the very top wrestlers in the world, from the Caucas region in Russia, are trained first in those gi' styles. Their style is in fact, extremely close to EU style of Judo. It is heavily based on upper body grips and then sweeps/trips. There is a reason it is close: those participating in EU Judo and those participating in wrestling comes from the same background, which btw, is not Japanese Judo and it is also NOT freestyle/folkstyle wrestling.
btw, a small note, Judo in Russia is not referred to as "Judo", it is referred to as "The Judo Wrestling". It is a small change in the name, but it is very telling of how people see Judo: a sport where you can borrow any wrestling technique: freestyle, folkstyle, native wrestling style, etc, etc..anything that works to win.
wrestling takedowns are easier to learn, and most BJJers don't have great takedown defence so it's enough.
whoabro - Judo is a sport that requires wearing a gi. No gi judo is an oxymoron; it is essentially then the same thing as freestyle/folkstyle wrestling when it comes to how you would execute throws <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
Your Arsonist -Your Arsonist -Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.
A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi).
Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you.
Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi. I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.
judom - whoabro,
its not the same. The reason is that in general, the gi', just like on the ground in BJJ, makes you a much better standup grappler as well. The gi' allows you to develop a feel that no-gi does not and it develops better upper body control than no-gi wrestling does. Let me say this: if you are well versed in stand-up gi' grappling in certain styles, you will be a great freestyle wrestler, the reverse is not true.
In fact, the very top wrestlers in the world, from the Caucas region in Russia, are trained first in those gi' styles. Their style is in fact, extremely chttp://youtu.be/BzlJ_xDzmdglose to EU style of Judo. It is heavily based on upper body grips and then sweeps/trips. There is a reason it is close: those participating in EU Judo and those participating in wrestling comes from the same background, which btw, is not Japanese Judo and it is also NOT freestyle/folkstyle wrestling.
btw, a small note, Judo in Russia is not referred to as "Judo", it is referred to as "The Judo Wrestling". It is a small change in the name, but it is very telling of how people see Judo: a sport where you can borrow any wrestling technique: freestyle, folkstyle, native wrestling style, etc, etc..anything that works to win.<br type="_moz" />
i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.
WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.
WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.
karpo -WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.
Maybe his comments are true for recreational players. Quite many Russian wrestlers do a lot judo like stuff and even the kids can do these.
If there was anyone who I thought should be the archetype of BJJ, someone who best represents the art of the small man against the big man with pure technique, it's him. He's like a crazy badger that attacks your back and gets your neck. MG is like a fucking super-hero on the mat.
The Sultan - I use a combo thai style/wrestling/judo takedown game. I think you can pull techniques from both judo and wrestling that work for you.