Marcelo on Judo vs Wrestling

Koga - Funny thing is that the takedown Marcelo shows is a judo version of judo throw (yoko wakare) and not the wrestling version (lateral drop).



I noticed this too!

Marcelo is talking about his experience competing against other world class grapplers and bjj practioners.

This is a whole lot different than hitting a judo throw on your buddy in your bjj class.

He's always said that if you have limited time in stand up practice, it's more beneficial to concentrate on double and single leg takedowns than judo throws- even for gi grappling.

In his experience, only very high level judo players are able to consistently take down their opponents with judo moves.

How is this to be debated? I'm pretty sure he has logged in more time competing at the ADCC or black belt world championship level than most people.

Sure, you can point out someone like Karo and Rhonda Rousey...but those are exactly the type of people that Marcelo said could use their judo in grappling tournaments- very high level judo competitors.

kying418,

I wouldn't say that. Ronda and Karo are standard examples of European Style of Judo. People get surprised that this works so well no-gi, but it is non-surprising. The EU Judo style is VERY different than the Japanese style which people usually associate with Judo.

I would even say that the EU style is more about wrestling than a lot of pure freestyle wrestling you see. Really, its almost a different sport than Japanese Judo.

However, I agree with Marcelo that if you have 1 hour a week to train takedowns, just learn a basic single or a double and that is about it.

Really, I think many people here do not understand that Judo is so rich, so many countries participate, that the styles are VASTLY different. Many are much closer to wrestling than Japanese Judo.



Take Chidaoba for instance, the Georgian native style. Many of the USSR champions in wrestling and Judo come from Chidaoba, including Iliadis, perhaps the greatest modern Judoka alive.



This style is VERY VERY FAR from Japanese Judo: the grips are different, the throws are different, the leg position is different, the techniques are different, the philosophy is different. In Brazil for instance, they teach the classic Japanese Judo and many of their players are well schooled in the traditional style. But again, this is vastly different than the Georgian style (Gokor comes from a style of Judo for instance that is very close to Chidaoba).



In fact, BJJ is much closer to traditional Japanese Judo than Georgian style of Judo, which really is basically wrestling.



However, most people on the UG are vastly unfamiliar with the different styles of Judo, so what they call Judo is usually Japanese Judo.

 

Judom- thanks for the insight and comment- very interesting stuff about judo.

 I use a combo thai style/wrestling/judo takedown game.  I think you can pull techniques from both judo and wrestling that work for you.

Judo is a sport that requires wearing a gi. No gi judo is an oxymoron; it is essentially then the same thing as freestyle/folkstyle wrestling when it comes to how you would execute throws Phone Post

<blockquote>Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.<br /><br />A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi). <br /><br />Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you. <br /></blockquote><br /><br />Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi.I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.<br />

Your Arsonist - 
Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.

A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi).

Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you.


Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi. I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.

whoabro,



its not the same. The reason is that in general, the gi', just like on the ground in BJJ, makes you a much better standup grappler as well. The gi' allows you to develop a feel that no-gi does not and it develops better upper body control than no-gi wrestling does. Let me say this: if you are well versed in stand-up gi' grappling in certain styles, you will be a great freestyle wrestler, the reverse is not true.



In fact, the very top wrestlers in the world, from the Caucas region in Russia, are trained first in those gi' styles. Their style is in fact, extremely close to EU style of Judo. It is heavily based on upper body grips and then sweeps/trips. There is a reason it is close: those participating in EU Judo and those participating in wrestling comes from the same background, which btw, is not Japanese Judo and it is also NOT freestyle/folkstyle wrestling. 



btw, a small note, Judo in Russia is not referred to as "Judo", it is referred to as "The Judo Wrestling". It is a small change in the name, but it is very telling of how people see Judo: a sport where you can borrow any wrestling technique: freestyle, folkstyle, native wrestling style, etc, etc..anything that works to win.

wrestling takedowns are easier to learn, and most BJJers don't have great takedown defence so it's enough.

whoabro - Judo is a sport that requires wearing a gi. No gi judo is an oxymoron; it is essentially then the same thing as freestyle/folkstyle wrestling when it comes to how you would execute throws <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>


Not this again....

Your Arsonist - 
Your Arsonist - 
Wasa-B - Another thing to add is that the fundamentals of many judo and wrestling techniques are the same but differ in minor detail because of the ability to grip the gi.

A hip toss/harai-goshi is a good example in that with a no-gi hip toss, you must be in much closer to your opponent to get a good grip and almost always utilizes an over/under or whizzer. In judo, because you of the grip you can get from a gi, you can do the tech from further out because you can pull your opponent to you (kuzushi).

Inside leg trip/ouchi garis are good example of techs that are similar in both but in judo there is the option to do them in diff variations because of the pulling ability. In wrestling, you usu have to do it as a forward technique but in judo, you can also do in sorta of backwards or in spinning manner again because of the ability to pulll your opponent towards you.


Im disagreeing here...kuzushi is the act of off balancing, this can be applied to any grip. It all depends on your style of Judo. Russian Judo requires very minor tweaking to apply fully to MMA/nogi. I was taught a very blended style of Judo. I'm not a high level player, but I have grappled with D1 wrestlers and solid guys on the mat and have had no problem hitting ouchi and kouchi or drop seoi nage without really having to think about adjusting.



What are you disagreeing with exactly?

I believe i did mention that something like ouchi is nearly identical in judo and wrestling (but that you normally dont do it in wrestling with your opponent coming forward because you dont have a gi to pull him towards you).

And out of curiousity, what kind of drop seoi are you referring to? Ippon or morote?

Yes, russian style judo is closer to wrestling as judom pointed out. In fact, i started in wrestling then went to judo so i still liked to do many wrestling or russian style moves. This is why Kashiwazaki was one of my favs.

judom - whoabro,

its not the same. The reason is that in general, the gi', just like on the ground in BJJ, makes you a much better standup grappler as well. The gi' allows you to develop a feel that no-gi does not and it develops better upper body control than no-gi wrestling does. Let me say this: if you are well versed in stand-up gi' grappling in certain styles, you will be a great freestyle wrestler, the reverse is not true.

In fact, the very top wrestlers in the world, from the Caucas region in Russia, are trained first in those gi' styles. Their style is in fact, extremely chttp://youtu.be/BzlJ_xDzmdglose to EU style of Judo. It is heavily based on upper body grips and then sweeps/trips. There is a reason it is close: those participating in EU Judo and those participating in wrestling comes from the same background, which btw, is not Japanese Judo and it is also NOT freestyle/folkstyle wrestling. 

btw, a small note, Judo in Russia is not referred to as "Judo", it is referred to as "The Judo Wrestling". It is a small change in the name, but it is very telling of how people see Judo: a sport where you can borrow any wrestling technique: freestyle, folkstyle, native wrestling style, etc, etc..anything that works to win.<br type="_moz" />

This ^

I see what Conclusion Eddie is trying to draw out of Marcelo's comment but it does not apply.

Lots of high level wrestlers train Judo to improve their wrestling.

i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.

WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.


While it may be "technically weak" from a pure wrestling standpoint, he is also incorporating a butterfly guard sweep into the takedown...which he is probably the best in the world at.

Thus, for bjj and submissions grappling, for him, it is a very technically efficient and effective move.

WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.


I agree. Whatever it was, it was bad. Maybe he was demonstrating that this version of yoko-wakare, does not work well without a gi;).

About judo and wrestling... With the countries that have strong culture,you can take a young wrestler and make him a good judoka and you can take a young judoka and make him a good wrestler. It is quite common for European junior judokas, when visiting US, to participate in school wrestling and, if they come from competition background, they do very well.

Then again, maybe these people are considered high level judokas..

I think this level is something that is expected from an athlete. Maybe his comments are true for recreational players. Quite many Russian wrestlers do a lot judo like stuff and even the kids can do these.

karpo - 
WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.


Maybe his comments are true for recreational players. Quite many Russian wrestlers do a lot judo like stuff and even the kids can do these.



His comment was based on the grapplers he has faced and seen compete in BJJ World Championships and ADCC competitions.

He is talking about what has worked best for him in a bjj and submissions grappling setting, not in a pure wrestling or judo situation.

If there was anyone who I thought should be the archetype of BJJ, someone who best represents the art of the small man against the big man with pure technique, it's him. He's like a crazy badger that attacks your back and gets your neck. MG is like a fucking super-hero on the mat.


The Sultan -  I use a combo thai style/wrestling/judo takedown game.  I think you can pull techniques from both judo and wrestling that work for you.