There are Judo techniques that work without the gi, and other which are no suited for it. Karo is an exception, he manages to apply an array of techniques with beauty, even techniques that normally do not work without the gi, or leave u in a bad position after the throw. Judo has distanced itself so far from its origins, that, at least in my experience, it is rare to find people who really understand the mechanics of the throws.
Here's the thing though. I agree that wrestling and no-gi techniques translate better to MMA. But the vast majority of people who train will never go as far as even one amatuer fight. The average adult will quit before making blue belt and the average kid will join a gi school because their parents think the martial artists wear gis and grandma wants a picture of said kid in his "karate uniform".
Hell the average guy is in maybe one or two streetfights in hisentire life, counting high school. Pro fighters will find out through trial and error what works for them. Everyone else who trains will look like a badass compared to an untrained person and if they compete will logically compete in whatever style/division they practice. What I'm saying is this is an argument about nothing.
ttt
marcelo always makes more sense when rockin the fro.
kying418 -WRESTLENOW - i can't quite hear everything he is saying but what he is showing is basically a very technically weak lateral drop.
While it may be "technically weak" from a pure wrestling standpoint, he is also incorporating a butterfly guard sweep into the takedown...which he is probably the best in the world at.
Thus, for bjj and submissions grappling, for him, it is a very technically efficient and effective move.
This.
Its a perfect example of subtle nuances between styles.
Why do so many MMA guys shoot endless doubles and fail? Then they go to the clinch and are clueless, waiting for the ref to separate them. One good throw could have changed the fight for them. Cross Train baby... that's it's called MIXED martial arts
Unseen - Here's the thing though. I agree that wrestling and no-gi techniques translate better to MMA.
exactly
i went from muay thai to judo to wrestling and i blend them all into one now without really knowing what is from what
are the neck ties from wrestling or muay thai?
are the trips from over under or seatbelt positions wrestling or judo?
is a whizzer uchi mata judo or wrestling?
i agree though that if u dont wrestle ur judo will be limited no gi...the guys at my judo school were pure gi and got cained by our more hybrid styles
russian judo style ftw
balena -
are the neck ties from wrestling or muay thai?
Depends which kind you're talking about.
balena -
are the trips from over under or seatbelt positions wrestling or judo?
Over/under is more prominent in wrestling but this is one area (like the aforementioned ouchi garis/inside leg trips) that is very similar in both. But as mentioned, you can do more variations of moves like ouchi in judo because of the gi and the angles/directions that come out of that.
balena -
is a whizzer uchi mata judo or wrestling?
Its way more prevalent in wrestling.
;p
judom - Really, I think many people here do not understand that Judo is so rich, so many countries participate, that the styles are VASTLY different. Many are much closer to wrestling than Japanese Judo.
Take Chidaoba for instance, the Georgian native style. Many of the USSR champions in wrestling and Judo come from Chidaoba, including Iliadis, perhaps the greatest modern Judoka alive.
This style is VERY VERY FAR from Japanese Judo: the grips are different, the throws are different, the leg position is different, the techniques are different, the philosophy is different. In Brazil for instance, they teach the classic Japanese Judo and many of their players are well schooled in the traditional style. But again, this is vastly different than the Georgian style (Gokor comes from a style of Judo for instance that is very close to Chidaoba).
In fact, BJJ is much closer to traditional Japanese Judo than Georgian style of Judo, which really is basically wrestling.
However, most people on the UG are vastly unfamiliar with the different styles of Judo, so what they call Judo is usually Japanese Judo.
Its common for people to consider the traditional or orhthodox style in their image of something though.
That said, it just struck me that Fedor's judo style in MMA looked more orhodox than Russian style. I cant really recall him doing many shoots or leg pick ups from what i recall. What do you think?
^ Karo's as well obvioulsy, even though he is from the Caucus.
Btw, while ive heard of Russian or former Soviet country folk styles, i never hard of Chidaoba specifically. I just youtubed it and aside from the funny sand pit that i saw in this clip (sand is a more ghetto version of a mat i guess ;p), it was interesting that the music being played was similar to that which is heard in Muay Thai but of course not suprising if you consider Thailand's cultural influences.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyvGqeE0t4E
In the clip above though, they are wearing vest gi's (no sleeves) where as in this one below, they are wearing full sleeve gi's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rWzF62rsMA
What is the traditional gi style? And when did they adopt the gi? Was it from judo? Was it traditonally gi-less? Like Sambo is a mix of judo and Russian/former Soviet folk styles, right?
Were these folkstyles (including Chidaoba) originally gi-less I imagine?
What are the rules in Chidaoba btw, Judom?
This is not some wrestling/bjj hybrid technique, it is standard in many judo sacrifice throws to use a foot to help elevator your opponent over.
Here is the same throw used by MG with a cross grip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OCqLIi0mIU
Koga - This is not some wrestling/bjj hybrid technique, it is standard in many judo sacrifice throws to use a foot to help elevator your opponent over.
Here is the same throw used by MG with a cross grip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OCqLIi0mIU
Id say its all of the above, man. It can and is used in all styles.
For arguement's sake as well, its quite a diff throw with a gi-cross grip than with an over/under - diff angle, diff grip, diff throwing side. The cross grip is kinda similar to the 2 on 1 in wrestling in some ways.
"Yes, russian style judo is closer to wrestling as judom pointed out. In fact, i started in wrestling then went to judo so i still liked to do many wrestling or russian style moves. This is why Kashiwazaki was one of my favs." - Wasa-B
Your really have no idea about judo. Kashiwazaki does not have a "Russian" or "wrestling" style of judo. In fact, if you read Alexander Iatskevich's book Russian Judo he credits the victories that Kashiwazaki and Sato had in sambo tournaments in Russia as a real revelation for the Russians as to the effectiveness of Japanese judo.
The obvious solution is no-gi Judo, which exists. We just need more of it and it neeeds to evolve.
subd
For Judo to be truly efficient it has to be practised for a long time. That invisible sense
of weight and balance that is necessary is only developped instinctvely after many years of training.
Wrestling, while still technique based is much more easier to pickup, even when athleticism is leading the way.
I think that's why you see much more BJJ/grapplers turn to it for takedowns, as opposed to learning judo which would almost require learning a whole new art. Both have merit and are effective, fact is, one is quicker to learn so today's youtube gen doesnt have time for it ;)
Koga - "Yes, russian style judo is closer to wrestling as judom pointed out. In fact, i started in wrestling then went to judo so i still liked to do many wrestling or russian style moves. This is why Kashiwazaki was one of my favs." - Wasa-B
Your really have no idea about judo. Kashiwazaki does not have a "Russian" or "wrestling" style of judo. In fact, if you read Alexander Iatskevich's book Russian Judo he credits the victories that Kashiwazaki and Sato had in sambo tournaments in Russia as a real revelation for the Russians as to the effectiveness of Japanese judo.
I'm sorry how does the statement that Alexander Iatskevich saw Kashiwa and Sato's sambo success as a real revelation of the effectivness of Japanese judo mean that Kashiwa's style was not "Russian" or "wrestling" like esp compared to that of orthodox/classic Japanese style?
Are you saying Kashiwa did have an orthodox/classical Japanese style?
Can you explain how you see Kashiwa's style itself and how it is not "Russian" or "wrestling" like?
Are you also claiming judom has no idea about judo?
dendawg - For Judo to be truly efficient it has to be practised for a long time. That invisible sense
of weight and balance that is necessary is only developped instinctvely after many years of training.
Wrestling, while still technique based is much more easier to pickup, even when athleticism is leading the way.
I think that's why you see much more BJJ/grapplers turn to it for takedowns, as opposed to learning judo which would almost require learning a whole new art. Both have merit and are effective, fact is, one is quicker to learn so today's youtube gen doesnt have time for it ;)
Dendawg in the house!
Pretty much agree in general with the above too. In general, newaza/ground work is easier/faster to learn than tachiwaza/standing work in judo.
Wrestling is also much more basic than judo though its still has its own intricacies, totally agree.
The only real thing I would add is that "For Judo to be truly efficient it has to be practised for" norally a longer "time" than wrestling and BJJ. ;p