Just a mental masturbation exercise...
Other sports have a combine that test performance indicators, some of these tests are controversial (40yd dash) and some are pretty good indicators of certain athletic aspects (vertical jump). Do you think there are any performance indicators or benchmarks that a combat athlete could set that would actually have some influence on their in ring/cage performance?
perhaps:
- 1min or 2min pushup test? (depending on length of their rounds)
- 1 or 2 min jump squat test? (1/2 squat, to tucked legs in air)
- dumbbell/kettlebell swings?
I'm not sure just throwing out some ideas. Again this is just a hypothetical mental exercise so take anything I'm saying with a grain of salt :-p. The way I figure though each performance parameter would be something that a mid to elite level fighter would score high on without training for it therefore a low to mid level fighter would aspire to higher performance standards.
5K, broad jump, pullups for reps
Skills pay the bills in other sports, but they still have combines to test physical attributes. Technique is always important, but so is athleticism. If you take two guys who have 'equal' skill, the bigger/faster/stronger guy will win.
Practice your sport for skill, lift to get stronger and do cardio to improve cardio.
Maybe a medicine ball throw for distance.
There are guys who do well at the combine but aren't successful in the NFL. Nobody claims it's a guarantee. And let's not pretend that Roy Nelson is completely unathletic. He might not set any Olympic records, but he's reasonably fit.
Anyway, weight classes make it difficult to select the combine activities.
http://www.ufc.com/news/ufc-fit-test-ultimate-benchmark
Squat Test
Always control the weight -- no bouncing out of the bottom position
Wat?
MMA is highly skill based and there is large range of combinations of physical attributes that can lead to success. I'm not sure outside of skills there are tests that could identify whether you are in shape for it. For me, I know if I can hit a solid crossfit fight gone bad score in the 350 range I feel good about where I'm at, but that may have more to do with confidence in my conditioning (which is very important too) vs what it actually represents conditioning wise. Any time I'm getting ready for a fight I get in a lot of hard sparring and I'd say that is more the indicator.
itisasitis - http://www.ufc.com/news/ufc-fit-test-ultimate-benchmark
Squat Test
Always control the weight -- no bouncing out of the bottom position
Wat?
What don't you understand?
Leigh -419 - 5K, broad jump, pullups for repsYou could be awesome at all of those and never succeed in MMA. The only thing really worth testing is how well you can fight, or at least your potential to learn.
I agree that measures like 1RM's, vertical, 5k... whatever, will not necessarily be indicitive of an athletes success in MMA. But it is still important to track your physical capabilities and deficiencies so that you know where you should be focusing your time when working your strength and conditioning.
But you would also need a standard to measure them against. So if you ran 3 miles in 25 minutes and had an 18" vertical, what would that mean? Some would say that it indicates strength should be prioritised, whilst others would say it indicates cardio should be prioritised. You would need a way to correlate performance on any given activity to the requirements of the sport, and as has been said, the huge skill component makes that extremely difficult.
The problem with combines is that beyond general fitness the tests only indicate the athlete's ability at the test itself. I've tested several great Mma athletes in exercises or circuits they've never done before and they performed through the roof. That might be a valuable way to perform a test, but impossible to actually do consistently (since lack of consistency is the point).
If a prospective mmaer has decent scores (not even good scores by competitive standards) of some of the tests listed in prior posts he'd be athletic enough to excel.
^ prospective NFL players spend time before the combine getting ready for the combine, which helps them test better. Of course, that also demonstrates their willingness to improve themselves, which is an important trait for pro athletes.
Standards are tough in a weightclass sport, especially for exercises like pullups.
Leigh -Conversely, you could be terrible at all of those but if you have skill and heart, you can succeed. An extreme example is Roy Nelson.
You can't play in the NFL without physical attributes, which is why a combine is useful. MMA doesn't require the same level of physical talent (outside of cardio) but requires other attributes that are harder to measure.
Not sure I agree that MMA doesn't require the same sort of physical talent as NFL. I've heard a lot of boxing guys say that one reason heavyweight boxing is in such a parlous state is that guys with the right dimensions for heavyweight boxing and who are exceptional athletes get channelled towards the NFL.
Forgive me for interpreting 'extreme example' of one who 'could be terrible' at athletic tests as unathletic. For the record, I have no way of knowing how anybody would do on my proposed tests until they are actually measured.
I'm thinking of amending the test to RHR, broad jump and maximum push-ups.
The best players in the NFL aren't necessarily the guys with the most amazing combine numbers. The ability to read what the other team is doing and react to bodies in motion are skills that separate the All-Pros from the workout warriors.
Not every successful prizefighter can bench 300, but how many can't do 25 pushups?
Leigh - High athletic performance doesn't correlate anywhere near as closely to MMA as it does to NFL. The top MMA guys are undoubtedly athletic but they all beat bigger, stronger guys.
The best you can do is have minimum thresholds but they'd be pretty low. How much can Anderson Silva bench? What is Cain Velasquez's max pull ups? What is John Jone's squat? I'm sure they can do respectable numbers but nothing like NFL athletes. I mean sure, if you can't do one single pull up, you're not going to cut it but its not like you need to be a super athlete.
Power at threshold is about the only physical attribute that is a prerequisite. I reckon all the champs could put out at least 2.5 watts for every kg of bodyweight and maintain it for half hour. Considerably more in the lower weight classes.
I agree the correlation isn't as high with MMA as it with NFL (even within NFL I'd guess it varies quite a bit by position). Isn't a lot of the progress since ufc 1 down to the increasing athleticism of the top mma fighters?
As for Jones I think he's probably the best case study of how natural athleticism can make a difference (I don't think it's a coincidence that both of his brothers play in the NFL). Brock Lesnar had a decent run in the HW division mostly on the basis of his strength.
If you were to take say 1000 12 year olds and get them to do a half dozen tests (vertical jump etc.) you'd have a pretty good idea which of them would likely develop into good mma fighters if they applied themselves.
"As for Jones I think he's probably the best case study of how natural athleticism can make a difference"
Given that you used vertical jumps as an indicator of "athleticism" im assuming you mean the traditional definition of the word so i dont see how Jones is the best case study for MMA
He is not the fastest or most explosive guy in his division, he cant dunk a basketball and his maximum strength is not that impressive for a 230 pound guy
I think you are selling his skills short here.
Leigh - The attributes important for MMA, in order:This.
1) Technique
2) Cardio
3) Speed
4) Flexibility
5) Strength
You could include others, such as mental strength etc, but the point is, skills pay the bills. You could tell that a guy who has poor cardio is unlikely to be successful but apart from that, the skill component overwhelms just about everything else.
banco -Leigh - High athletic performance doesn't correlate anywhere near as closely to MMA as it does to NFL. The top MMA guys are undoubtedly athletic but they all beat bigger, stronger guys.
The best you can do is have minimum thresholds but they'd be pretty low. How much can Anderson Silva bench? What is Cain Velasquez's max pull ups? What is John Jone's squat? I'm sure they can do respectable numbers but nothing like NFL athletes. I mean sure, if you can't do one single pull up, you're not going to cut it but its not like you need to be a super athlete.
Power at threshold is about the only physical attribute that is a prerequisite. I reckon all the champs could put out at least 2.5 watts for every kg of bodyweight and maintain it for half hour. Considerably more in the lower weight classes.
I agree the correlation isn't as high with MMA as it with NFL (even within NFL I'd guess it varies quite a bit by position). Isn't a lot of the progress since ufc 1 down to the increasing athleticism of the top mma fighters?
As for Jones I think he's probably the best case study of how natural athleticism can make a difference (I don't think it's a coincidence that both of his brothers play in the NFL). Brock Lesnar had a decent run in the HW division mostly on the basis of his strength.
If you were to take say 1000 12 year olds and get them to do a half dozen tests (vertical jump etc.) you'd have a pretty good idea which of them would likely develop into good mma fighters if they applied themselves.
I think you'd be surprised.
Bas Rutten was a weak and sickly 12 year old who only got into training because he was bullied so much. BJ Penn was notoriously bad at training and i doubt he scored particularly well in his vertical (you didn't mention any other tests). Joe Calzaghe (i know he's a boxer, but i think the point stands) was bullied as a kid and was physically weak before he got into boxing. Even as an adult he wasn't very muscular and i doubt his vertical was at all impressive. Roy Nelson looks like his vertical would barely break double digits. Royce Gracie was neither strong nor explosive. Anderson Silva only became dominant in his 30s and again i doubt he would score much better than many other MMA athletes that he would destroy in a fight.
The list could go on.