"mma'er" converted to systema

Underground
59

"As Matt Thornton would say, MMA gives you a sense of timing, motion, and resistance. Nothing prepares you for being punched in the face like being punched in the face."

In systema we practice taking punches to the face and body. Not just standing like a dummy like say juko kai, but absorbing. The more seasoned can take quite hard punches. I'll see if I can dig up a clip of this kind of training.

"The same goes for rolling."

I think it's been established we roll as well.

"So, what does systema offer that typical mma training does not?"

Well, it is wider in scope. There is a fellow in Vlad's club who cross trains MMA, I've dug up a recent post. I figure it has more merit than mine since he actually trains at both schools.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24291&highlight=#24291

"OK, can you explain to me what is the difference, then, between mma and systema?"

Well, as I said the scope is wider. Improvising weapons, fighting in or under water, firearms usage and defense (they just did a pile of force-on-force in Florida), knife usage and defense, the breathing thing. Different modes of fighting, from aggressive to escape and run etc. etc.

"What can systema offer for the person who is not into this street fighting mentality? If you wish to be a bouncer, vip security, LE, military, okay, if your decision is to study systema, then that's your decision. But for the person who does not have the mindset of, "today's the day I get into a street fight", where does systema fit, I ask you?"

I am not a professional security person or anything, however I have been assaulted because I'm a visible minority, and this incident drove me to seek the most realistic self-defense solution I could find. Systema is the end of that journey (thus far).

However, I'm not a paranoid person or a survivalist. On one level it's a lot of fun and helps me relax. On another it's helped me understand body movement in everything from ballroom dancing to skiing. I've already done tournament type stuff and nowadays I concentrate on being effective despite my dwindling strength, onsetting arthritis and accumulated injuries. For me, systema has been useful because I can adapt to my body's capabilities.

"Does it not feed those who are paranoid and fearful with more paranoia and fear, the type who worry about getting into a street fight?"

The opposite, really. There was an Article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts about this sort of thing. I'll see what I can dig up.

61

"I was actually saying that every demo of Systema that I've seen from Vladimir on down the line to students at a seminar seem to practice these flowing, fluid, strange movements, yet when you are sparring in those clips I see none of that."

What is in front of you dictates the work.

Systema has hard and soft aspects. However, hard aspects tend to make the average joe a bit scared, so it's not well-publicized. Believe it or not, all the moves I did, I got from systema class. A lot of what I did is what I do in class. Vlad showed me shelling, the takedown is from his grab-escapes practices, the headlock escape/reversal is based on a flow drill he does, the kicking I used is from him, the arm triangle I did from the stuffed shoot is from him, the footwork is from him, etc. etc. etc. And in fact in the straight grappling I tried to be as gentle as possible.

As I said, different modes of work.

The problem I think is that you don't really know systema, you only know the stuff they give away.

63

"And yes I realize that the first clip is vladimir; I'll try to find another clip of just students doing those movements. I just think that you will always fight how you train, and if your training those fluid movements but don't use them when you spar then whats the point??"

I use the movements that are appropriate. The misapprehension you are under is that what you see in the first clip is the whole egg. We train a lot of different ways for different kinds of fighting. In point of fact, the core systema attributes are: breathing, movement, relaxation, and form. I am breathing, I am relaxed, I kept moving, and I kept my form (except near the end). These things are all internal to me, but this is the level we train at. We aren't doing monkey see, monkey do.

64

Discovery Channel ran a show called Go Warrior in which Roland Osbourne visited the top guys form BJJ, Aikido, TKD and Systema.

For systema they show him flown into a Russian army base via helicopter and observing troops.

i think some of it is on youtube.

65

"You can look it up..."

It's your claim, why don't you provide a reference?

67

"Jelly do you think that a Systema student could jump into an MMA fight and hold his own? Or is Systema one of those arts that loses its "edge" when bound by rules?"

Rather than give my opinion, I'll refer you to the opinions of people who have been and done:

" Hello
This is a humble opinion from a guy who has been in a cage a few times.
I have fought in the ECC on the Canadian coast and twice for the UCW out of Manitoba. Currently I am training for a fight for King of The Cage in Halifax NS.
I have a few different partners. One is a purple belt under marcus soares... some others muay thai
me...I train systema...
this being said..its good to see the mindset of a BJJ guy, or a wrestler, or Muay Thai.
The movement I have learned from training with Vlad and the physical barrages I have recieved from Demetri anytime I have trained with him have helped me in the fights.
the biggest thing I find systema has given me is the mental mindset...relaxation, and focus...as well as the ability to keep pride out of it. If my opponent lands a good shot or gets a good position I don't even consider it..it is simply recognized and I move on from there.
Systema is efficent even for sport matches..its about adaptability right!?
No plan ever lasts after the first shot goes down range.
the cage is a good place to explore what you have learned...adapt it ..use it...
I encourage any one interested to try it..train safe and smart and hard....
the biggest thing is that so many MMA fighters take their ego in the ring or cage with them and this leaves no room for movement!!
Hey..its only fighting?"

"Good day folks
I don't post alot on here but I decided to throw in my 2 cents before the Canadian dollar starts to drop low again..
I have seen posts about Systema practicioners discussing the systems validity with others in the MMA world, and to real life situations.
I am (A)a military Close Quarter Combat instructor, been overseas, (B)a part time doorman, and(C) I also fight Professional MMA(been in the cage a few times and am preparing to do it again!)
One thing about me is that I seek truth.. I need things to work. If they don't here is what happens:
in ref to situ (A) I can die, (B)the situation is not resolved or I get sued for excessive force, and (C)I don't get paid very well!
I feel I have found what I have been looking for... The System is solid !!Trust, seek and practice!!!
Thanks Vlad for helping me deal with all the situations in the alphbet!!
Ex tenebris Lux!"

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2541&highlight=mma

from pete rogers.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2916&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=mma&start=15

"We have a lot of MMA guys in the Montreal club as well. As far as labels go, it's a natural concern to wonder at what point does MMA training start or stop being Systema. In the most technical way of speakng, it becomes less "systemic", less natural, the moment it's contrived. Because MMA is a sport, it will always have flow limitations as mentioned. There's still a lot of value in that nevertheless. My perception of Systema is all about working with limitations.

In my personal experience, the very most important thing I teach my MMA guys (and all students for that matter) is breathing. When I plan my lessons, I start everything with breathing. How can I teach this ground position starting with breath? How can I throw this thai kick better by leading with the breath? How will the principle of sufficiency improve this suplex, etc.? The essential breathing principles outlined in Vlad and Mikhail's book are my shopping list even for MMA training.

I try to never teach "technique". Even when I am working on a fighter's weak spot, like a half-guard escape or defense against a looping hook, I always teach 1 or 2 simple principles and drill it a dozen ways. I think that plasticity and adaptability are probably the most important things Systema has to offer. If you want to fight creatively and to adapt to all things, you need your training to reflect that. Although I come from a traditional ground fighting background and I have done my guilty share of A,B,C style techniques for decades, I no longer advocate that approach. I don't think your fight plan should read like Ikea instructions--'cause if you lose that Allen key, you're screwed. I've been at ring side and seen my fighters getting there "patterns interrupted" by shots to the face, constantly starting a text book counter and then getting derailed by a hit and then starting over and getting derailed again. The problem with textbook work is that everybody is going to the same library. Systema gives unorthodox responses. Some of the stuff that comes out in our training sessions literally stuns me. I wonder how a student of 8 months can come up with an escape or strategy that I've never come close to thinking of, but then I realize it's just pure Systema. As Mikhail has said, if you don't even know what you're going to do, it's impossible for your opponent to read your intention.

Lastly, I always go back to the basic rules of stress innoculation outlined by Donald Meichbaum in the 70's. Educate, Rehearse, Apply. I try to make every training session, no matter how short, respect this learning curve. 1, understand "why" you are doing what you are doing today. Without cognitive understanding, your faith in the work will be less. You need to believe to achieve. 2, practice slowly and mindfully. When you do slow work, "do slow work". Don't let your mind rush. Give yourself the chance to succeed and give your mind the chance to see yourself succeed. Your mind will believe what it sees and I want my fighters to see themselves succeeding. I insist on super slow, slow work. There will be time to rush later. 3, Apply the lessons and principles against resistant partners. Put it in the pressure cooker. With MMA guys, that might mean padding up and swinging. It might mean gauntlet drills vs. focus mitts. It might mean range specific drills like dirty boxing against the ropes or drilling just throws or ground hustle, but drill it vs. resistance. Then, I like to finish with a kroog, debrief, discuss, see what worked and what didn't and end the session by setting the goals for the next session.

Since I've integrated Systema into my ground and MMA training, the growth of myself and my lads has been enormous. Less injuries (far, far less), more efficiency, faster recovery time between sessions and more joy in the training sessions. The motivation to train is always there. It becomes even more addictive than it already was.

Good luck with your match,

Training is truth,

Kevin"

Kevin Secours in Montreal

http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

68

Posted by Jellyman:

"Praise for one of the systema instructors and value for his systema lessons (very brief snippets of). "

"So you think what an instructor is teaching (systema) is valuable for everyone "regardless of skill level", but you think that you have to be experienced to to get value from it?"

Posted by me:

"Yes, praise for the Sistema Instructor. I don't know Demetry's background so I'm not going to attribute everything he does to Sistema. He appears to me to have training in other forms of grappling. "

Posted by someone at youtube underneath the video I have embedded below:

"Lol, the guy you just called "MMA" guy is Demetry Furman, a Systema teacher in downtown Toronto! He is awesome at ground fighting and did take parts in professional competitions. Here he is actually laying back a little, bringing that guy into submission with almost no effort. Look up his ground fighting workshop on youtube by searching for Demetry Furman. He is also into Sambo and wrestling, but his primary one is still Systema, since Systema is more a unification of all these styles, plus more "




69

I don't know if there is a video of what I described... probably the organizers of the demo would have it but they would never leak it.

But it is a direct friend of mine and there were other eye-witnesses. I can't shout out names in the forums though so say whatever you want...

70

"Well, as I said the scope is wider. Improvising weapons, fighting in or under water, firearms usage and defense (they just did a pile of force-on-force in Florida), knife usage and defense, the breathing thing. Different modes of fighting, from aggressive to escape and run etc. etc."

I still don't get how does this apply to the average joe on the street who just wants to have fun and challenge himself in a sportive nature. All of this stuff -- firearm defense, knives, fighting under water, and the like -- suggest a type of training that's more expected of a person going into security or something or of someone who frequents street encounters like a LE official. Things like fighting under water sound more impractical and comes off as more of a pscyhological drill than anything else. I somehow doubt the average joe will find themself fighting under water in a self-defense situation.

And things like verbal deescalation, should I hit first, what to tell the plice, while neglected in many arts sadly, are not exclusive and take a short amount of time to learn.

The point is this: I can see some merit in what you're saying. The breathing and relaxation drills are good and can be found in other avenues, not just systema. But I've personally seen some rather stupid idealogies like kicking a knife out of a person's hand and other nonsense. I was never in a knife fight, but anyone who was would tell you that you WILL get cut and sometimes you won't even realize it.

But like I said, in a real encounter, it's about being mentally prepared for combat stress and accessing your gross motor skills. The best way to evade dangerous situations is to look for the signs and avoid them. A lot of it is common sense. I understand you had a situation and I am in no way telling you specifically what to do with your life. If dangerous situations are a grave and legit concern and maybe you feel your home and family are targets, and as long as the person can handle the responsibility, a firearm is a good option. Again, not for anyone in particular, but a person is more likely to be killed by disease than in a lethal combat with another human being. Otherwise, imo, I don't see the point in training for a street fight that may or may not at some unknown point in the future.

edit: Just read a few posts above this one and I wanted to add something to that. Look at Fedor. Really, look at him. He has never heard of systema and yet he can turn on and off his controlled aggression and explosiveness like a light switch. The basic mental fortitude that drove soldiers in ancient times is no different from today. The point is you don't HAVE to take systema to enhance your ability in the ring or even in life. It's not some secret. There are no secrets to fighting. It won't make you into a Fedor equivalent. If it did, then all mma'ers who took systema would be dominating but that's not the case because the skills necessary to be successful are, in truth, independent of any martial art, skill-wise. Anybody can learn an armbar. What's different is the mental mindset and there is no reason why you can't develop such a mindset in an mma gym to be a winner. What worked thousands of years ago still works today.

Systema, at least in my area, is pure garbage, imo, and that's all I can really say about it from a personal perspective.

71

I have a BIG problem with that video of Vladimir working with his students.

The whole rationale behind doing stuff SLOWLY is that it allows you to develop technique in a low stress environment. However, working like this ONLY works if everyone is on the same page and moves at the same speed. It doesn't do any good if one guy is moving twice as fast as anyone else because, in real life, there is no way that anyone is twice (or three times, etc.) as fast as another human being.

But watching Vladimir, you see him do that over and over again. He gets "stuck" in certain places and he revs up the speed and VOILA he gets out with his "magical" sensitivity, etc. There's no way he could be able to pull that stuff off at full speed unless the person attacking him was significantly slower than him.

74

"He is also into Sambo and wrestling"

Dema does Sambo? I've known and trained with the guy for about 10 years, before he started systema. In fact he got me into it. No formal sambo as far as I know.

Ask him and he'll tell you, he learned the most from Vlad.

Again, you are looking at a systema seminar by a systema instructor and saying it doesn't count, even though that's what's being taught.

75

"But watching Vladimir, you see him do that over and over again. He gets "stuck" in certain places and he revs up the speed and VOILA he gets out with his "magical" sensitivity, etc. There's no way he could be able to pull that stuff off at full speed unless the person attacking him was significantly slower than him."

You think he can't pull that stuff off full bore? You think no one has tried?

76

"But I've personally seen some rather stupid idealogies like kicking a knife out of a person's hand and other nonsense. "

A drill to get good at kicking.

"I was never in a knife fight, but anyone who was would tell you that you WILL get cut and sometimes you won't even realize it."

None of this is news.

78

"But I've personally seen some rather stupid idealogies like kicking a knife out of a person's hand and other nonsense. "

A drill to get good at kicking.

"I was never in a knife fight, but anyone who was would tell you that you WILL get cut and sometimes you won't even realize it."

None of this is news.

"The point is you don't HAVE to take systema to enhance your ability in the ring or even in life."

So don't take it, what do I care?

Just respect my right to take it.

79

According to Poyton, this was not a sparring match. As such he just felt like goofing around.

I am curious as to where you got your information on what proper mechanics in systema are.

82

"it seems that people go "elsewhere" to pick up actual fighting ability (crosstraining in BJJ/Sambo/MT etc...)."

Perhaps you should reread pete roger's posts

83

You think he can't pull that stuff off full bore? You think no one has tried?

You're missing my point.

He moves at twice or three times the speed of his "attackers" when they are all moving at slow speed.

Anyone can pull off ANYTHING when working in this fashion.

84

"I am talking about body mechanics found in Boxing, MMA, MT etc."

So you're arguing from orthodoxy.

"This video is labled russian spetsnaz secret techniques"

And if you read the comments, the parties involved are not affilliated with VV or MR.

There are different Russian styles within Russia.

85

"He moves at twice or three times the speed of his "attackers" when they are all moving at slow speed."

Maybe on contact. Again, I've seen him do it against gunslingers.