I had a successful gym owner/instructor tell me his gym is beating (in business and competition) the numerous other local gyms in the area because the BJJ he is teaching is the only "modern" in town. I rebutted him and stated that the game he described as "old" was still found at middleweight and up. (fyi: he said half guard, closed guard, pressure top, not pulling guard). He conceded that is still around at the higher weights.
So what's the definition of modern bjj? Is it just the game lightweight and under competitors are doing now? Is it specific to berimbolo, leg drags, back takes, spider?
Is Marcelo 's game modern? What about The Nova Uniao guys who dominated in the 90s at the lighter weights? They played a lot of butterfly and half and tons of lapel attacks.
just an opinion but modern to me pretty much means geared to competition because the sport primarily evolves (A) through competition, so you have to keep up (B) Since MMA is moving away from combat and more toward a sport aspect (short rounds, limited rules etc).
Traditional is traditional.
I mix it up but am primarily a traditional academy. It has helped me to differentiate in an otherwise crowded marketplace where all other schools teach the modern competition style. Funny thing is that my students who compete tend to do well.
He can have his lame ass white belt berimbolo crew
Modern jiu jitsu is more the style of passing, guard retention and footwork. Marcelo's game is the mix of modern/classic. He created a system around the xguard and the single-leg x as his way of dealing with people who pass on their feet.
A lot of modern passing is standing based passing which many of the higher weight competitors don't do. I'd imagine a smaller guy realized that no matter how much pressure he can generate on this knees he'll still get tossed against a big guy so the footwork/mobility is more focused on instead of pressure. You pressure only when you to certain spots. Similarly people who played half guard get their heads crushed and got cauliflower ear. Smaller guys took the half guard and the "spiral guard" and it evolved into the RDLR. Add a spiderhook your head stays relatively safe while you can control the distance without taking a lot of smashing. Inverting has been around for a long time but the idea of inverting against pressure, again my guess, is that smaller guard were getting crushed in half and when they realized they could make some space with the RDLR hook and go under their opponent and not get crushed it started to become "a thing". It's mostly just answers against pressure passes.
Truth is, there is always a way around modern and old school style passing and guards. It's up to the player to figure out when to do what. The difficult part is if you're from an old style gym the only times you'll really get to feel the new style game is in competitions or if you happen to go to open mats and there are people who are doing it. That's the fun and challenge of bjj. That said, there's high level new school and new school that someone watched some video and is 45% procifient at it's a big difference.
just my 2 cents.
The guy is an idiot. You can have a successful academy by the vibe you create, wholesomeness of the team environment, cleanliness, quality of teaching, etc. When it comes to the teaching you will have some that want a all inclusive game and that is fine, but if you focus on giving your all to the students and are making them better thats it. If anything he sounds like a young idiot if that is how he is describing his overall success.
He's not young actually. He's a relatively newer black belt, lighter guy. Nice guy but has some views on BJJ that I don't agree with. His team (kids) and school has DONE extremely well and he seems like a compassionate gym owner. Just taken a back by his reasonings.
Wutang -Modern jiu jitsu is more the style of passing, guard retention and footwork. Marcelo's game is the mix of modern/classic. He created a system around the xguard and the single-leg x as his way of dealing with people who pass on their feet.
A lot of modern passing is standing based passing which many of the lower weight competitors don't do. I'd imagine a smaller guy realized that not matter how much pressure he can generate on this knees he'll still get tossed against a big guy so the footwork/mobility is more focus'd on instead of pressure. You pressure when you to certain spots. Similarly people who played half guard get their heads crushed and the cauliflower ear. Smaller guys took the half guard and the "spiral guard" and it evolved into the RDLR. Add a spiderhook your head stays relatively safe while you can control the distance without taking a lot of smashing. Interting has been around for a long time but the idea of inverting against pressure, again my guess, is that smaller guard were getting crushed in half and when they realized they could make some space with the RDLR hook and go under their opponent and not get crushed it started to become "a thing". It's mostly just answers against pressure passes.
Truth is, there is always a way around modern and old school style passing and guards. It's up to the player to figure out when to do what. The difficult part is if you're from an old style gym the only times you'll really get to feel the new style game is in competitions or if you happen to go to open mats and there are people who are doing it. That's the fun and challenge of bjj. That said, there's high level new school and new school that someone watched some video and is 45% procifient at it's a big difference.
just my 2 cents.
That's a good break down.
in
Sounds like something the "Rubber Guard" guys would say.
I'm pretty sure most people do not train at their school because it teaches a certain "style"- unless it's the 10th planet people.
As already mentioned, people stay with a group because of the environment and training partners.
I always considered modern just the recent games people were playing, maybe a bit on the more complex side.
I feel like Spider guard at one point was considered modern, but now its pretty "basic" in some sense.
I think whats modern today won't be so modern in a few years once something else comes up.
As you go through the weight classes --of any combat sport-- the game changes. There is "big boy" Judo & wrestling, boxing too is different at the higher weights and obviously BJJ is as well.
In BJJ, it seems that there's more innovation at the lower weight classes. I'm curious WHY that seems to be the case.
My intuitions says it's due to the fact that the strength-to-weight ratio is so differnt; a wider variety of techniques are possible at the lower weights, whereas at the higher weights there's a lot more stuff that simply won't work.
What do you guys think...?
Great post by Wutang. I think (and hope) low passing will come back into fashion with the lower weights to combat the DLR/RDLR that's so prevalent currently.
Shen - I think lower weights definitely have more mobility, and that shows in other combat sports too. It's why also the likes of Cyborg (with his Tornado guard) and Buchecha (especially Buchecha) stand out, as they have that in comparison with many of their peers.
Personally, even as a smaller guy (155lbs) I actively dislike the modern lightweight game. More specifically, I dislike the strategy of the double guard pull. It's not just the fact that it looks stupid, but I fail to understand why in a double pull, one fighter doesn't come up to get the 2 points that are on offer. The odds are that even if sweeping from the double pull, you'll end up in a guard passing situation. So why fight for the sweep only to end up in a pass, when you could have popped straight up after the guard pull and ended up in the same place points wise?
I appreciate that many of the sweeps being attempted from the double guard pull are berimbolo-type sweeps that if successful take you around the guard to the back, rather than through the guard. And sweeping directly to a back take is absolutely a valid strategy. But I just think so many easy points are missed by a stubbornness and refusal to do anything but sweep to the back. It was nice to see new sensation Nicholas Meregali go for a double pull and then pop up for points and start passing in one of his matches very recently.
Anyway, apologies for taking the thread off on a different tangent. I bet the instructor mentioned by June has no-one above middleweight in his school.
James
my opinion is that the modern style is forged by the rule sets of the most important competitions that are out there. As the rules change and adapt over time (whether to a new dominant organization or to new rules themselves) the sense of modern BJJ changes as well.
In ten years if the rule sets change so that pulling guard gets -1pt, a takedown gets 2 points and a throw gets 4 points - i can guarantee that that the current style of play wouldn't do so well in competition and the 'new' modern one would prevail. That then might change again and again over time.
If you've been around long enough you've seen the changes and recognize the importance of being able to teach it all so that you can develop well rounded students and not ones stuck in a period of time (that will eventually be outdated)
He's got a selling point for his gym and it's working. It can be off putting to others with the implication that modern is better.
Also, I just assumed when you said modern that he was implying a big emphasis on the leg lock game, but he didn't seem to mention that from your post. To me that is a major part of "modern" BJJ or whatever the fuck you want to call it.
That double guard pull is annoying especially since you have guys who have amazing passing that still do it. I have training partners that will cut through my guard like a hot knife through warm butter that still do it. I know it's done because they have more confidence in their guard then their passing.
Yes, definitely guys like Cyborg, Buchecha, (most recently) Lo are the exceptions and I definitely feel a part of their success is that guys in their weight divisions have no idea how to deal with that style. In the gym some 155lber tries to invert on a heavyweight and the success rate is pretty low. Suddenly you have a guy your size doing it to you - of course you're gonna get launched. Equal size and relative strength - big guy gets to feel what little people get all the time. :D
Low passing against DLR/RDLR is definitely an option. Problem is the fluency of players who do DLR/RDLR also play spider. Spider, essentially, forces you to stand or else you get dumped on your head, defending from your knees is hard. My personal tactic, which I "borrowed" from Galvao's philisophy is pass standing until you get to half. Once you're there back to the knees and it's very difficult to for your opponent/training partners to invert and get under you.
For the school owner, he'll have his niche. It's a bit closed minded but whatever, his business, his choice.
shen -
As you go through the weight classes --of any combat sport-- the game changes. There is "big boy" Judo & wrestling, boxing too is different at the higher weights and obviously BJJ is as well.
In BJJ, it seems that there's more innovation at the lower weight classes. I'm curious WHY that seems to be the case.
My intuitions says it's due to the fact that the strength-to-weight ratio is so differnt; a wider variety of techniques are possible at the lower weights, whereas at the higher weights there's a lot more stuff that simply won't work.
What do you guys think...?
I don't think its a lack of innovation at higher weight classes due to the fact that the techniques won't work, I think it is more of a necessity for the lighter weights to innovate while it is not as necessary at the higher weights. Though I do agree it is mostly due to the strength to weight ratios. Of course there is truth in the fact that the bigger guys have less mobility etc, but just talking about the main driving force.
If you are 130 lbs, it is much more difficult to hold someone down, even if they are also 130 lbs. Combine that with smaller guys being forced to develop strong guards because they end up on the bottom in training against larger partners. That is why a lot of the innovation at the lighter weights revolves around going from the guard directly to the back or at least side control, avoiding the necessity to pass the guard.
I don't know if the guy is advertising "modern bjj." He's just attributing his current success to teaching a style of bjj that isn't being taught by the gyms in the city. Good guys are leaving their gyms to join him. He isn't teaching the modern no gi leg attacks from what I can tell. I didn't see any heavyweights in his gym photos on social media. Seems like a school that attracts lightweight.
I agree completely with Jimmy's assessment as to why the evolution occurred. The game looks completely different below lightweight. Must've developed out of necessity to prevent crossfaces and pressure. Also, passing with the objective of taking the back which is favored by lighter competitors is due to fact it's more difficult to pass, hold side mount and mount when you're significantly smaller than your opponent.
shen -Agreed but the fact that my belly gets in the way when inverting should also be considered a factor.
As you go through the weight classes --of any combat sport-- the game changes. There is "big boy" Judo & wrestling, boxing too is different at the higher weights and obviously BJJ is as well.
In BJJ, it seems that there's more innovation at the lower weight classes. I'm curious WHY that seems to be the case.
My intuitions says it's due to the fact that the strength-to-weight ratio is so differnt; a wider variety of techniques are possible at the lower weights, whereas at the higher weights there's a lot more stuff that simply won't work.
What do you guys think...?
Not many 200+ lb gymnasts out there.
New school puts a bigger emphasis on drilling. Guys who drill do way better than guys who don't