I competed in NAGA over the weekend and got 2nd place (expert 140 lbs). Won my first match by heel hook then lost on points in the finals in a close match which I thought I should've won or at least been scored a draw. Overall it was a great experience and I had a lot of fun. If someone can watch that final match for me and let me know how you'd score it, that'd be appreciated. Thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDXmfveD2cY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBq8SsS5_vY
Ah, Rick, we met at last! I was your ref and I didn't realize you were TBA until just now!
I watched the video and scored it 12-5 although I remember the actual score being closer. The position points and sweeps are identifiable (and all are scored at 2 points) but with the sub attempts I had a lot better vantage point on Saturday than I do in front of my computer screen right now. Here's my rundown:
Red mount, 2 points (1:33)
Red Americana attempt, 1 point (2:34, it was a pretty good attempt that I might have awarded two points for, had he been in full mount rather than 1/2)
red toehold attempt, 1 point (3:00)
Note that during the match I seem to recall awarding you two points during this leg lock exchange but I can't pinpoint exactly when during the video.
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (3:52)
Green sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:03)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:30)
Green sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:47)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (5:13)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (5:37)
Green triangle attempt 1 point (4:47, from this angle, a two-point sub attempt could be argued)
NAGA awards 50/50 sweeps with crossed legs, unlike IBJJF. There certainly wasn't any stalling taking place during this match.
Both of your matches were awesome, and you are an extremely technical (and entertaining) grappler to watch, I know you are disappointed by the outcome, but thank you for supporting the tournament and I hope to see you again!
RAY
Ray Blackburn - Ah, Rick, we met at last! I was your ref and I didn't realize you were TBA until just now!Yes nice meeting you and you did a great job reffing. I know reffing is difficult since someone will be upset at close calls and such. I also work as a ref in other tournaments.
I watched the video and scored it 12-5 although I remember the actual score being closer. The position points and sweeps are identifiable (and all are scored at 2 points) but with the sub attempts I had a lot better vantage point on Saturday than I do in front of my computer screen right now. Here's my rundown:
Red mount, 2 points (1:33)
Red Americana attempt, 1 point (2:34, it was a pretty good attempt that I might have awarded two points for, had he been in full mount rather than 1/2)
red toehold attempt, 1 point (3:00)
Note that during the match I seem to recall awarding you two points during this leg lock exchange but I can't pinpoint exactly when during the video.
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (3:52)
Green sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:03)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:30)
Green sweep from 50/50 2 points (4:47)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (5:13)
Red sweep from 50/50 2 points (5:37)
Green triangle attempt 1 point (4:47, from this angle, a two-point sub attempt could be argued)
NAGA awards 50/50 sweeps with crossed legs, unlike IBJJF. There certainly wasn't any stalling taking place during this match.
Both of your matches were awesome, and you are an extremely technical (and entertaining) grappler to watch, I know you are disappointed by the outcome, but thank you for supporting the tournament and I hope to see you again!
RAY
The 50/50 sweeps, I don't understand how he was awarded 3 sweeps and I was only awarded 1. I entered 50/50 when I was on bottom then remained on bottom after we exited the position. We ended up trading top / bottom position so wouldn't that be trading sweep points? I started bottom and ended up on the bottom after all the 50/50 stuff.
Also from 50/50, when he came up on top, I connected my hands behind his back with double under hooks and extended my legs away which causes my opponents knee to get torqued sideways. I thought he was about to tap then I heard his knee / hip pop which was scary cuz I have blown out people's knees with that move and seen people get injured. No idea how he gutted it out and didn't tap. My opponent was icing his knee / hip after the match and probably injured something as a result. I did that on 2 separate occassions and both times cranked the submission on bottom and when I got on top. It's a subtle submission that's difficult to see at times but you can see it if you look closely. I thought each of those attempts should've been 2 point attempts.
Either way I had fun and I'm not that big into the rules / scoring. I try to submit whoever I'm facing and I had 6 minutes but wasn't able to submit the guy in the finals so that's on me for losing a close match on points.
Knee crank submission from 50/50
I did score two sweeps for you. And you are right, I missed that nifty (and subtle) calf splicer from 50/50. I should have awarded you sub attempt points for that!
Ray Blackburn - I did score two sweeps for you. And you are right, I missed that nifty (and subtle) calf splicer from 50/50. I should have awarded you sub attempt points for that!You scored 3 sweeps for him and 2 sweeps for me. I'll go back and look at it again but if I started bottom and ended up on the bottom after, wouldn't that mean we swept each other the same amount of times? That's what I meant with my previous post.
And yeah, it's a sneaky yet highly effective submission which can be easy to miss. That's why I was sprawling hard when I was on top in 50/50 in order to try to crank his leg sideways more.
I noted the times in my point observations above. By all means please let me know if you disagree with any of the specific sweep calls.
Ray Blackburn - I noted the times in my point observations above. By all means please let me know if you disagree with any of the specific sweep calls.Do you count a sweep as being in bottom of 50/50 then coming on top or is a sweep simply coming up on top after being in a neutral sitting 50/50?
And I disagree with the first sweep because I was on bottom of half guard then I transitioned into a leg lock position to where he went for a toe hold then we went into 50/50 and he came back up on top which is where he originally was. I never established top position to get swept.
Both. Positionally, 50/50 is like a double guard pull whereby NAGA rewards the first to advance (from double neutral) to a top position.
Unlike IBJJF NAGA doesn't specifically address 50/50 sweeps in its rule book. I am submitting your match to our refs' FB page for critique and mention in our next rules update.
Ray Blackburn - Both. Positionally, 50/50 is like a double guard pull whereby NAGA rewards the first to advance (from double neutral) to a top position.Okay that makes sense now with the scoring if that's how it's supposed to be scored. I always thought a sweep is being on clearly on bottom and coming up on top, instead of being neutral like 50/50 and coming up on top. If I knew that's how 50/50 sweeps are scored, a competitor could rack up many points just by coming up on top then sitting back down to neutral- which I might do next time from 50/50 if I need some points, lol. Keep me updated with what the other refs say about the 50/50 scoring.
Unlike IBJJF NAGA doesn't specifically address 50/50 sweeps in its rule book. I am submitting your match to our refs' FB page for critique and mention in our next rules update.
Actually right after his toe hold attempt, he got sweep points since I let him come up on top for 50/50 so I could do that knee crank submission. I wasn't thinking points from 50/50- I was thinking that I gotta submit the guy. If I had gotten points for those knee cranks and/or the 50/50 sweeps weren't scored as just coming up on top, the match would've been about tied at that point and an overtime period would have been nice.
Because with the 50/50 sweeps being scored as such, I basically lost because my opponent went from neutral to top several times instead of being on top the whole time.
Either way it was a good match and I had fun, regardless of how the points were scored. I know reffing is a tough job and with close calls, whoever it goes against will be upset at the ref. I know that win, lose or draw- it's on me and not the ref. I had 6 minutes to submit my opponent and wasn't able to do it so that's on me.
Correction, after looking at the video again I see that I almost award the sweep points to red at 5:14 but I lower my hand after nearly giving the two points because he didn't have control for two seconds. This is why the score was closer than I remembered.
I definitely should not have awarded red the first sweep, because he was caught in a submission (unrecognized by me) as he was sweeping. He shouldn't have received sweep points until he cleared the submission.
Referee discussion in progress on Facebook.....
Ray Blackburn - Correction, after looking at the video again I see that I almost award the sweep points to red at 5:14 but I lower my hand after nearly giving the two points because he didn't have control for two seconds. This is why the score was closer than I remembered.Hmmm interesting, the only reason I let my opponent get up on top so I could do that knee crank submission. Then once I had it cranked up, it threw him off his base and I ended up on top trying to sprawl hard to crank it more. Once I couldn't get anymore crank on the submission, I completely let it go and we went back to neutral 50/50 with us both sitting. That happened twice. So based on that, he shouldn't have gotten sweep points and I should've gotten near submission points instead, right?
I definitely should not have awarded red the first sweep, because he was caught in a submission (unrecognized by me) as he was sweeping. He shouldn't have received sweep points until he cleared the submission.
Referee discussion in progress on Facebook.....
That submission is right off the Ryan Hall 50/50 DVD and it's highly effective from 50/50. And what can be done now? Outcomes of matches can't be changed due to video replay.
ray,
does naga award points for passing the guard and if not why? you award side control points, but not passing. in the opening score, under ibjjf and every other org that does points, pass and then mount points would have been awarded.
what are the benefits of giving side control points over passing points?
what happens if i pass to north south? is that considered a variation of side control and you only award the 2 points?
final question, what requirements does naga have of their refs? bjj rank? reffing exp? reffing courses?
mikecimm -In NAGA, there's points for side control, mount and back control. There's no passing guard points, only points for those dominant positions you would achieve after you pass the guard.
ray,
does naga award points for passing the guard and if not why? you award side control points, but not passing. in the opening score, under ibjjf and every other org that does points, pass and then mount points would have been awarded.
what are the benefits of giving side control points over passing points?
what happens if i pass to north south? is that considered a variation of side control and you only award the 2 points?
final question, what requirements does naga have of their refs? bjj rank? reffing exp? reffing courses?
^^^ Correct. One of NAGA's competitive niches relative to organizations is that we try to be more inclusive of other grappling styles (as such we get a lot of wrestlers and MMA fighters in our events). "Passing the guard" is a concept unique to BJJ when the objective should really be to reach a position (such as side control) that is suited to submitting someone/ending a fight, regardless of where you started on the way to reaching that position.
For this reason I would also like to eliminate sweep points in NAGA no-gi rules, but I seem to be the only ref who holds this opinion. I think the attaining of the top position should be its own reward, in that it allows you the opportunity to advance to a scoring position. Since it's only scored from the bottom of the guard or 1/2 guard, I think it's a little too BJJ-friendly (please don't think I'm anti-BJJ, as I love the gi and am a brown belt).
Attaining the north-south position would be scored two points. You can't collect both side body and north-south points in the same progression of movement though.
If you're interested in working with NAGA, minimally you need to be a purple belt in BJJ but you don't need to have other reffing experience. You'll complete an apprentice period and have to pass a pretty difficult exam (on two encyclopedic rule sets, as we do follow IBJJF in the gi competition) in order to become certified. If you're interested, by all means reach out to NAGA via the contact info on their website.
Ray- Any update on what other NAGA refs are saying? I assume there's nothing that can done now but it would be like a moral victory if it is determined that I should've won, lol.
Rick, I've watched this match 5 times and can keep coming to different conclusions due to a couple instances of sweep attempts that don't result in two second control. Two refs who I respect greatly feel that each of you had two sweeps.
Tonight I'm headed to St. Louis, and by Saturday I'm going to show the final 2.5 minutes of the match to the head referee to see what he thinks!
Ray Blackburn - Rick, I've watched this match 5 times and can keep coming to different conclusions due to a couple instances of sweep attempts that don't result in two second control. Two refs who I respect greatly feel that each of you had two sweeps.Okay thank you for looking into it more and showing other refs. I won't be there at the St. Louis one this weekend since it's too far of a drive unfortunately.
Tonight I'm headed to St. Louis, and by Saturday I'm going to show the final 2.5 minutes of the match to the head referee to see what he thinks!
Wouldn't a sweep not count if he is in a submission? Which is what happened cuz whenever my opponent was on top in 50/50, I was cranking his knee. I actually let him get on top so I could go for that knee crank. But I think regardless of the sweeps, I was going for that knee crank submission from 50/50 (twice) which I should have been awarded points for as it was the closest submission of the whole match- at one point I thought I blew out his knee and he was icing his hip and knee after the match. I learned that cool submission from the Ryan Hall 50/50 DVD.
If the head referee thinks I should have won, what would NAGA do? Just mail me a championship belt or something? Keep me updated please.
Will do. Will you be in Chicago later this year?