So in the trial the jury was very clear that they believed the victim was raped. They also believe that Irvin tried to participate, but could not get it up.
I have looked for the complete transcript, but cannot find it. Can you link to it?
That my friend you unfortunately are going to have to go the long route, which is contacting the clerk of courts. Reason being is that since the case is so old none of what the court reporter got from the trial is even available online (I know it sucks but trust me, i've tried to no avail). However, there are a few things that I would like to point out. From that same site, Lloyds attorney had already issued a statement regarding their defense:
So that right there already throws the whole limp/impotent argument out the window, because that shows the source is contradicting itself. What the case boiled down to was whether or not it was an actual rape that happened, or if the encounter was consentual. All of the guys said it was consensual except for Walter Neighbors (I can discuss more on his place in the case later). Neighbors was the girls boyfriend, and his testimony was key in getting convictions overturned. Simply put, the girl was lying, and it later came out that she was lying which resulted in the prosecution completely changing the direction of the case.
There is more that I can add/share to this that i've personally found but im trying my best to keep this from turning into a FRAT.
Rob all is fine bro. The jist of things is that at first Nyjah was disgusting because she "testified against the character of the victim" (who gain, shall remain nameless). This was untrue, Nyjah only answered the questions that were asked of her, the majority of which being yes or no. Its not like she could get on the stand and just slander the victim (which is what people reading this thread initially were lead to believe, and is why I spoke up). If you look at what she was actually asked, she didnt really speak against, or say anything bad about the victim at all, so where this whole "against" thing came from is beyond me.
Once that was situated it changed from Nyjah being disgusting from testifying against the character of the victim, to Nyjah being bad for her continued support of TLI. One thing that I can say with 100% fact is that 99% of this forum has absolutely no clue as to what REALLY happened. The working body of knowledge from this case on this forum comes from media publications (and we know the media never spins anything right?). It doesnt come from any actual documentation from what actually happened in court. So basically what you have now is people calling a man LImp Irvin. Calling him that because they've been told that his testimony in court was that he was impotent, and because of this, he should be set free, when in actuallity that was NEVER said in court. This hate train thats against him isnt even working from a factual body of knowledge, and thats what bothers me.
For the BJJ community to be so gung ho about finding the truth (I.E tracing the legitimacy of someones black belt), its shocking to me that they havent dug the truth on this one up already. I mean for fucks sakes its not that difficult. A trip to the court house is all that would be needed to see what was actually said. Part of me believes its because people love drama, and have no interest what so ever in finding out the truth, but for those interested i'd love to share, because I've actually done the leg work.
If you have done all the leg work and believe what you write, then why don't you just post the transcripts or links to them? Not many of us can just up and travel to a courthouse in MD or wherever to look shit up. Since you've done it all, just post it, then you don't have to keep typing long posts telling us you looked into it without actually showing us anything.
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<span class="User-331851" id="userPost53786825"><span class="User-296994" id="userPost53784218"> </span></span></p>
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<span class="User-331851" id="userPost53786825"><span class="User-296994" id="userPost53784218">Rob all is fine bro. The jist of things is that at first Nyjah was disgusting because she "testified against the character of the victim" (who gain, shall remain nameless). This was untrue, Nyjah only answered the questions that were asked of her, the majority of which being yes or no. Its not like she could get on the stand and just slander the victim (which is what people reading this thread initially were lead to believe, and is why I spoke up). If you look at what she was actually asked, she didnt really speak against, or say anything bad about the victim at all, so where this whole "against" thing came from is beyond me.</span></span></p>
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<span class="User-331851" id="userPost53786825"><span class="User-296994" id="userPost53784218">Once that was situated it changed from Nyjah being disgusting from testifying against the character of the victim, to Nyjah being bad for her continued support of TLI. One thing that I can say with 100% fact is that 99% of this forum has absolutely no clue as to what REALLY happened. The working body of knowledge from this case <strong>on this forum comes</strong> from media publications (and we know the media never spins anything right?). It doesnt come from any actual documentation from what actually happened in court. So basically what you have now is people calling a man <span style="line-height: 1.6em;">LImp Irvin. Calling him that because they've been told that his testimony in court was that he was impotent, and because of this, he should be set free, </span><span style="line-height: 1.6em;">when in actuallity </span><span style="line-height: 1.6em;">that was </span><strong style="line-height: 1.6em;">NEVER</strong><span style="line-height: 1.6em;"> said in court. This hate train thats against him isnt even working from a factual body of knowledge, and thats what bothers me.</span></span></span></p>
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<span class="User-331851" id="userPost53786825"><span class="User-296994" id="userPost53784218">For the BJJ community to be so gung ho about finding the truth (I.E tracing the legitimacy of someones black belt), its shocking to me that they havent dug the truth on this one up already. I mean for fucks sakes its not that difficult. A trip to the court house is all that would be needed to see what was <strong>actually</strong> said. Part of me believes its because people love drama, and have no interest what so ever in finding out the truth, but for those interested i'd love to share, because I've actually done the leg work.</span></span></p>
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<span class="User-331851" id="userPost53786825">If you have done all the leg work and believe what you write, then why don't you just post the transcripts or links to them? Not many of us can just up and travel to a courthouse in MD or wherever to look shit up. Since you've done it all, just post it, then you don't have to keep typing long posts telling us you looked into it without actually showing us anything.</span></blockquote>
^^^^ This is a perfect example of what im talking about. You're quoting something I've written several posts up, but im guessing you either ignored, or didnt even bother to read my post that addressed this very thing. With that being said, I cant link to court transcripts, they are too old. If you want to see what happened, you'll need a physical copy. This goes back to what I said earlier in the thread, this forums entire body of knowledge surrounding this case is based on something they read in the media that was completely bogus (again, shown above).
I'd kindly like to remind my forum brethren that this case was from 1989, meaning that this case is older than some of the people reading this. I know that we're so used to being in this digital era where everything is available to us over the web, but its to my understanding cases that are past a certain point arent available online, which means that If you want them, you're going to have to do what I did, go to the source. I can outline and detail EXACTLY what you need to do, and who to talk to if you want to go that route (just PM me). As far as posting them, I have absolutely NO desire to go through the labor of scannning and posting it all (although I am open to persuasive offers :-). Thats way too much effort to invest in something that is already readily available, and attainable to the general public.
Lastly, I'd like to remind you (you specifically Iam), the tone of my responses throughout this entire thread has always been, dont take my word for it, see for yourself. Its easy to sling shit at a man, call him names, belittle him, etc. etc., but requires effort to actually backtrack and do the research to see why you were wrong. I know this because I am guilty of doing the same exact thing.
For those of you that are attorneys, i've been told about finding cases through Nexus. I myself personally havent tried this because I dont have an account, but its to my understanding that it shouldnt be an issue finding if you have it (again, dont quote me on this particular thing because I dont have Nexus, so i cant say).
I will never get what it is about Lloyd that inspires such loyalty. He is such an obvious piece of shit to those of us on the outside looking in, but he gathers these crazy hardcore defenders so well.
TrappeBier - I will never get what it is about Lloyd that inspires such loyalty. He is such an obvious piece of shit to those of us on the outside looking in, but he gathers these crazy hardcore defenders so well.
Nothing in that article makes Lloyd look better or the victim look less credible. He 100% did some fucked up sexual shit back in 89.
What loyalty?!? Im not a TLI student, nor am I a defender. I dont train with him, im not in any of his mastermind groups, and I have no dealings with him. I'm just a guy that thinks it takes a real POS to throw dirt at someone over something they dont really have any clue about. I not once told any of you to take what I said at face value, I said look it up for yourself, because all you guys are doing is reading an article online and taking it as gospel. How many times have we read shit online that was supposed to be gospel but was bogus? Exactly.
This reminds me of that case with the football player who was wrongly accused of raping that girl. Everybody had nothing but mud to sling when he was in jail, and nobody bothered to try to find out what really happened. Once the case was overturned everyone was all apologetic because they had judged him without fully understanding what had happened, and took the media and the girls testimony at face value. This is no different.
My point of posting that article earlier was merely to say that the source was contradictory in nature. In one instance its saying Lloyd was limp, and in another it was saying Lloyd participated. Which is it?!? Outside of that, I at no point said that that article made the girl look less like a victim, what I said was the girl lied, and convictions were overturned once Walter Neighbors came out and said it was all a lie.
You said "They did some fucked up sexual shit", but if that were the case then why would the prosecution overturn the conviction? Prosecutors dont just go fucking up their conviction ratios because they start feeling bad all of a sudden. Dont believe me, by all means, look up the Gattlings case. I saw it with my own eyes, you can find it via court record 0939-90-1.
These are facts, not my opinion, look that shit up for yourself. If you're going to throw dirt at a person, at least have the facts behind you. Im not going to hold everyones hand here because honestly as adults it really isnt that difficult to find out what happened. You wouldnt like it if someone accused you of some shit you didnt do.
TrappeBier - I will never get what it is about Lloyd that inspires such loyalty. He is such an obvious piece of shit to those of us on the outside looking in, but he gathers these crazy hardcore defenders so well.
Nothing in that article makes Lloyd look better or the victim look less credible. He 100% did some fucked up sexual shit back in 89.
What loyalty?!? Im not a TLI student, nor am I a defender. I dont train with him, im not in any of his mastermind groups, and I have no dealings with him. I'm just a guy that thinks it takes a real POS to throw dirt at someone over something they dont really have any clue about. I not once told any of you to take what I said at face value, I said look it up for yourself, because all you guys are doing is reading an article online and taking it as gospel. How many times have we read shit online that was supposed to be gospel but was bogus? Exactly.
This reminds me of that case with the football player who was wrongly accused of raping that girl. Everybody had nothing but mud to sling when he was in jail, and nobody bothered to try to find out what really happened. Once the case was overturned everyone was all apologetic because they had judged him without fully understanding what had happened, and took the media and the girls testimony at face value. This is no different.
My point of posting that article earlier was merely to say that the source was contradictory in nature. In one instance its saying Lloyd was limp, and in another it was saying Lloyd participated. Which is it?!? Outside of that, I at no point said that that article made the girl look less like a victim, what I said was the girl lied, and convictions were overturned once Walter Neighbors came out and said it was all a lie.
You said "They did some fucked up sexual shit", but if that were the case then why would the prosecution overturn the conviction? Prosecutors dont just go fucking up their conviction ratios because they start feeling bad all of a sudden. Dont believe me, by all means, look up the Gattlings case. I saw it with my own eyes, you can find it via court record 0939-90-1.
These are facts, not my opinion, look that shit up for yourself. If you're going to throw dirt at a person, at least have the facts behind you. Im not going to hold everyones hand here because honestly as adults it really isnt that difficult to find out what happened. You wouldnt like it if someone accused you of some shit you didnt do.
Your not the guy that posted in 2010 that you were a lloyd student?
TrappeBier - I will never get what it is about Lloyd that inspires such loyalty. He is such an obvious piece of shit to those of us on the outside looking in, but he gathers these crazy hardcore defenders so well.
Nothing in that article makes Lloyd look better or the victim look less credible. He 100% did some fucked up sexual shit back in 89.
What loyalty?!? Im not a TLI student, nor am I a defender. I dont train with him, im not in any of his mastermind groups, and I have no dealings with him. I'm just a guy that thinks it takes a real POS to throw dirt at someone over something they dont really have any clue about. I not once told any of you to take what I said at face value, I said look it up for yourself, because all you guys are doing is reading an article online and taking it as gospel. How many times have we read shit online that was supposed to be gospel but was bogus? Exactly.
This reminds me of that case with the football player who was wrongly accused of raping that girl. Everybody had nothing but mud to sling when he was in jail, and nobody bothered to try to find out what really happened. Once the case was overturned everyone was all apologetic because they had judged him without fully understanding what had happened, and took the media and the girls testimony at face value. This is no different.
My point of posting that article earlier was merely to say that the source was contradictory in nature. In one instance its saying Lloyd was limp, and in another it was saying Lloyd participated. Which is it?!? Outside of that, I at no point said that that article made the girl look less like a victim, what I said was the girl lied, and convictions were overturned once Walter Neighbors came out and said it was all a lie.
You said "They did some fucked up sexual shit", but if that were the case then why would the prosecution overturn the conviction? Prosecutors dont just go fucking up their conviction ratios because they start feeling bad all of a sudden. Dont believe me, by all means, look up the Gattlings case. I saw it with my own eyes, you can find it via court record 0939-90-1.
These are facts, not my opinion, look that shit up for yourself. If you're going to throw dirt at a person, at least have the facts behind you. Im not going to hold everyones hand here because honestly as adults it really isnt that difficult to find out what happened. You wouldnt like it if someone accused you of some shit you didnt do.
Your not the guy that posted in 2010 that you were a lloyd student?
- - - - And after training at his school a considerable amount of time, that is really what he has his guys doing.
I am most certainly am him, but I think you're stretching it a bit drawing that conclusion from me saying I spent some time there (which is perfectly fine by me if thats the route you'd like to go). If you would've read a few posts prior you could've been spared the labor of the detective work and you would've seen this:
So there you have it. I never denied anything, it was the contrary, I was open about it. The thing is however it was BECAUSE of that interaction that I decided instead of persecuting a man based on something from a website that has contradicted itself in this very case, I was going to go to the source, considering it is PUBLIC INFORMATION afterall. Gonna repeat that part, every bit of Lloyds 89' case is open, and is PUBLIC INFORMATION. I was just as upset as you guys when I heard the allegations, but this country is built on innocent till proven guilty, so I wanted to know for myself before I condemned him.
So now that we've covered my personal involvement (again, im an open book, ive answered every question thats been asked of me, havent hid or denied a thing), can we get back to the matter at hand? You guys wanted factual proof, information that would substantiate any of the things that i've said. I've given you that. I gave you a documented court case number that you could follow up with on your own. I didnt provide you with some article from some website that contradicts itself. No, i've given you something you could go to the clerk of courts with and follow up on on your own, and find out what ACTUALLY happened during that trial.
So whats it gonna be? Are you guys going to continue to use that article as your sole resource when you have something tangible that you can follow up on with the courts? Its not that hard, I mean for goodness sakes even if you're being lazy i've done 75% of the work for you already, all you have to do is look.
I know I am just a hater jealous of his millionaire lifestyle. Whatever happened with all the IRS bills? Either way, we all know that Lloyd is a cult leading attempted rapist... Or he is a cult leader that participated in the gangbang of a drunk 17 year old... Or he gang raped a 17 year old... There is a reason that so many of his medal chasers up and left in the middle of the night. They literally ran away in the middle of the night to escape his bullshit. I know some of them personally. They knew they where leaving finacial security but they just wanted out. He is a scumbag, most people can see it, some can not.
Fuck him, and Fuck everyone that supports him. Fuck Team Lloyd Irvin.
KenShamrockWOOOOO - Man, fuck backaddict he's a TLI shill and it's obv af
You know what, I'll indulge you. Lets say theoretically I am in fact a shill. What bearing would that have on the court case number that I provided above? Shill or no Shill there are things that can be faked, and things that cant be faked, and court case numbers arent one of them. Take that court case number, find the associated cases and look over those as well, my point being in all of this is ITS NOT HARD TO FIND THE FACTS. If I randomly said "Fuck KenShamrockWOOOOOO, he's a limp dick wannabe racist". I'd have to offer up some proof to substantiate my claim, otherwise it'd just be some twisted accusation. In this case we have ACTUAL court documentation that we can reference, that im trying to get you guys to see, but you're so stuck on being stubborn you refuse to even look.
TrappeBier - Your wall of text technique, no can defend.
I know I am just a hater jealous of his millionaire lifestyle. Whatever happened with all the IRS bills? Either way, we all know that Lloyd is a cult leading attempted rapist... Or he is a cult leader that participated in the gangbang of a drunk 17 year old... Or he gang raped a 17 year old... There is a reason that so many of his medal chasers up and left in the middle of the night. They literally ran away in the middle of the night to escape his bullshit. I know some of them personally. They knew they where leaving finacial security but they just wanted out. He is a scumbag, most people can see it, some can not.
Fuck him, and Fuck everyone that supports him. Fuck Team Lloyd Irvin.
"We all know that Lloyd Irvin is an attempted rapist".
- No, you dont know that. You're making that assumption based on an article that you've read. I've provided a court case number, and several other references for you to find out what really happened, yet you've decided *NOT* to follow up on any of that, so technically, you dont know anything.
"We know that he is a cult leader" -
Reaching really far on that one, but whatever
"There is a reason so many of his medal chasers up and left in the middle of the night"
- We can talk about this too if you like, although I honestly think that it should be a different thread. You say that you know "some" of the guys that left, well I know *ALL* of them. I know why they left, and I know who orchestrated them leaving, and why he did it (i dont mind saying his name either for sake of reference). I'd love nothing more than to blow the whistle on that guy. Most importantly, I know the reason why the guys that didnt leave stayed behind (when they very easily couldve left).
"They literally ran away in the middle of the night to escape his bullshit"
- Negative. They didnt run anywhere. I tell you what though, if they were so afraid, why is it that some of them now regret leaving, even so long after the fact (and not regretting it for financial reasons). Personally, I say lets let the entire truth out the bag. Lets not make blanket anonymous statements. lets name names, call references, the whole nine yards.
KenShamrockWOOOOO - Man, fuck backaddict he's a TLI shill and it's obv af
You know what, I'll indulge you. Lets say theoretically I am in fact a shill. What bearing would that have on the court case number that I provided above? Shill or no Shill there are things that can be faked, and things that cant be faked, and court case numbers arent one of them. Take that court case number, find the associated cases and look over those as well, my point being in all of this is ITS NOT HARD TO FIND THE FACTS. If I randomly said "Fuck KenShamrockWOOOOOO, he's a limp dick wannabe racist". I'd have to offer up some proof to substantiate my claim, otherwise it'd just be some twisted accusation. In this case we have ACTUAL court documentation that we can reference, that im trying to get you guys to see, but you're so stuck on being stubborn you refuse to even look.
SO basically, FRAT then you're a shill.
Any sort of logic you have works for nothing. I'm a 15er, BITCH.
Lloyd pays people to do exactly what you are doing. Plant the seed of doubt claim superior knowledge without posting the evidence only eluding to it and saying its out there and threaten return fire if continued criticism.
If you arent getting anything for all this work you are doing then its weird.
"Irvin also told students he was helping pay the legal bills for Nick Schultz and Maldonado, who — like most in his circle — had little financial means of their own."
On October 7, 1989, Irvin and seven to nine other men congregated in an apartment at River Park Tower, where one of them had led an unidentified female attending nearby Hampton University to the bedroom. She claimed she was punched and slapped, according to The Daily Press in Hampton, Virginia, and heard one man muse how easy it would be to throw her off the balcony.
The men allegedly ripped out her tampon and took turns raping her. A physician who later examined her indicated she suffered from vaginal spasms, indicative of forced intercourse.
In the morning, she was allowed to shower and was driven back to her dorm. Three of the men were quickly rounded up by Newport News Police, a number that would grow to eight as the investigation continued.
In the spring of 1990, a 20-year-old Irvin and co-defendant Terrence Gatling were the first to be tried for rape. Both pleaded not guilty.
Irvin's defense: though he wanted to participate in what he believed was consensual sex, he was unable to achieve an erection.
Because the jury believed that the woman couldn't positively identify him as one of the men who penetrated her, he was acquitted. A less fortunate Gatling was found guilty of forcible sodomy.
"I feel the girl was raped," one juror told the Press. "But the room where this happened was dark, and with all that was going on, it was unclear who was doing what."
The victim, 17 years old and 98 pounds, told her story in court three times over 15 months. Of the eight charged, four men were convicted and sent to prison; one received a suspended sentence; and two cases were dropped due to insufficient evidence. Irvin exited the courthouse a free man.
"I'm just a disinterested party who cared enough to get copies of the court case, and type wall after wall of text in LI's defense, but I can't bother to take a picture of these documents." If you weren't covering up real crimes against real people, it would be comical.
"Irvin also told students he was helping pay the legal bills for Nick Schultz and Maldonado, who — like most in his circle — had little financial means of their own."
I read that Lloyd only paid the initial consulting fee, then they had public defenders after that?
