If he said "straight" elbow locks, then he is wrong.
The rules clearly say you can attack the elbow joint.
I can use compressions, extensions, twists, anything that attacks the
elbow joint, and gives the opponent a chance to submit.
MarkT,
I have another question. I know that attacking the neck or spine is illegal in any form, however, I have used a "can-opener" from within someone's guard (only to open the guard, not to submit) multiple times in tournaments before.
My question: is this legal (even though it places pressure on the spine) or was the Ref just ignorant of this technique and how it was being applied?
Also, I was told that wristlocks are illegal, however, Tom Sheehan (I'm sure you know him) told me that you could bend the wrist "forward" or inward, but not "backwards" in order to get someone to release his grip when defending an armbar. Can you verify this please? Thank you.
The ref probably thought it wasn't tight enough + ignorance. It's a clearly illigal move.
You can bend wrists a little bit for control and grip release, but don't make it look like the wristlock is what you aiming at.
Judo is less technical than jiu-jitsu. Jiu Jitsu contains all the techniques of Judo plus!
- Here we go again.
Thats like saying Judo contains all the techniques of BJJ plus!
BJJ has more technical ground, judo more technical stand.
Thats all.
You can't even pull down on the head in the triangle, so I'd be careful.
Same with the wrist, or fingers. You might get away with it, but it is
too great a chance that a ref will call you on it.
Finally, Kodokan Judo does contain all of the techniques of BJJ/GJJ, and
Olympic Judo too.
Like it or not, they are subsets of the orginal system. Yes, there are
new ways to get to those techniques, unique to the rules of the game;
but in terms of holds, takedowns, submissions, etc, there is not one in
BJJ/GJJ that can't be found in traditional Kodokan Judo.
I still can't find any judo on TV, I've been trying to find it for a couple days.
"Kodokan Judo does contain all of the techniques of BJJ/GJJ, and Olympic Judo too."
I think this is a fair and true statement.
There are records, such as Mifune's book as well as Oda's groundfighting book, that serve as a testament to the type of techniques and training that Judoka's did a hundred years ago (Mifune's book was written in 1956 BUT he states the techniques represented 50 years of training in Judo so it is safe to assume the technique he showed were techniques he learned and did over the years of his career prior to the publishing of the book. Oda's book was translated into english by E.J Harrison in the 1950s the original book was written and publish in Japan in the early 1900s. The same can be said about Oda, the techniques in the book were done by Oda for years prior to its publication).
So like the biblical proverb states:
"there is nothing new under the sun, what is new now has been done already in old time before us"
If one were to examine and truly study the book I mentioned one would find that those before us had the SAME techniques, strategies, concept: both defensely and offensely in mind.
but it's being turned into all flash and no substance. What's the point of having your sport become an Olympic member, when you have to appease the advertisers, and turn it into something different?
- The main reason for the changes in the rules, is again, to promote aggression and less stalling. The groundwork poriton does suffer in competition but again, many/most (good) clubs do continous groundwork.
In Judo, the ultimate goal is primarily the ippon throw. If the rules help to make it a more attack friendly tempo that ends up in more scoring, that is hardly less substance. How is stalling substance anyhow?
The Gracies, as far as I know, took jujitsu and adapted in to NHB fighting (just like Karo and co), thats the difference. Dont think that every judoka trains with the intention of being a street or MMA fighter. They train to compete in the sport of judo.
As far as "rogue" schools, like I said, in practice ground work sessions can be quite extensive and there are many styles that stray from classical Japanese judo and have done so for decades.
I dont like the idea of pulling your opponent off the ground to get a halt either. That is a cop out and not a proper counter to an armbar, for eg. But judo is a sport, it is not MMA and neither is boxing or sport bjj. You have never had judokas going around claiming it was the ultimate martial art either.
Judo is far from off limits from constructive criticism but if you judge it by the MMA effective or "realistic" angle, you could go on forever with every sport style.
When I first started judo, I was a wrestler so I looked at it from a wrestling point of view but wrestlings' wrestling and judo's judo. If you want MMA effectiveness, you should simply train MMA.
"What's the point of having your sport become an Olympic member, when you have to appease the advertisers"
There's a grain of truth to what you say, but you're taking that grain and trying (for whatever reason) to build a sand castle out of it.
The rules are to promote action and aggression, something essential to any self-defense situation. BJJ, as much as I love it, could definitely use some of those rules.
The Olympics don't have advertisers, lol
ratings being the key words
HEY GUYS!!! That's why this site is MMA dot tv. And the reason w're all on this forum is that we all know that MIXED MARTIAL ARTS is this best! But go ahead. Argue about which part of MMA is the best- judo or wrestling, grappling or jiujitsu, boxing or karate, etc. Go ahead Have fun.
I watch and am entertained by any combat sport. All combat sports entertain if you know a: What the competitors are trying to achieve and b: Skills are on display.
In saying that, I think it's all a little artificial. More entertaining than sub grappling??? No f'n way Mr Matey.
"What's the point of having your sport become an Olympic member, when you have to appease the advertisers"
There's a grain of truth to what you say, but you're taking that grain and trying (for whatever reason) to build a sand castle out of it.
- dam, now that was poetic. First post? Mad props to you my friend.
Exactly what I was trying to say: what is so bad about trying to discourage stalling and encouraging more of an attacking style?
Btw, the "reason" he takes a grain and tries to build a castle out of it is Your Bitch is....
A BJJ Troll-Judo Hater/Discrediting Campaigner. 99% of his posts are usually for the purpose of trying to prove BJJ is superior to god and how bad judo licks.
He is, however, very dedicated on the above...
Forget the problems with the tournament rules. They will always exist in one form or another. The only time any kind of stupid rule someone complains about is a problem is during a tournament.
In class, things are different. Definitely a lot more newaza and other techniques maybe considered dirty. Example: I never turtle in class but I would use it in a tournament if I need it.
Tournament = rules and play fair
Street = dirty judo time
When you walk out that door after class Judo is a martial art. I think we all know the difference.
As far as pins control over someone being temporary:
...continued
Your father claims that a pin does not mean complete control because eventually your opponent will escape when you make a mistake or when you become exhausted.
How can he claim this? What if the guy on the bottom gets exhausted or just can't escape because your pin is too solid. Is that not complete control over your opponent by pinning him?
And as far as the street is concernd isn't it obvious that if you pin someone helpless (especially the average joker) that you can easily pound the heck out of him? Does that not constitute defeating someone?
with pins i think of it as "ok youve managed to subdue me, youve put me in a position where i have no real response to, so you win". which is real realistic if you ask me. for example, what do cops do when they are confronted with a violent perp? they try and subdue and restrain him until back up arrives.
gaining control.
thats the goal of the game and thats what sport Judo and even sport BJJ is a game.
Btw lifting out of subs is great grounds for a restart. If you think otherwise ask any competitior to lift you and then go the the eventual conclusion of that move. Slams are only fun for the guy on top. In fact they shouldn't just restart. For an example see Rampage's fight in GP round 2 event.
btw can I knee someone in the nuts when in wide open guard or what the guy shooting the guard on me in BJJ? Just to clarify cause BJJ is all about the street.
As i've stated at length in my previous post, the chance to fight a martial artist is nearly 0 on the street and as far as beating homever it's all the same. If he hits you on the jaw and clocks you out before you do anything then it doesn't really matter if you are a 37 times olymnpic judo medalist and wrestler or you won 10 straight adcc events. If not then a bjjers will somehow get the guy to the ground and choke. Judo will know for sure how to take ground and will choke easy cause they are fighting an untrained guy who just got slammed so hard he doesn't know which way is up. End result. Hrmmmmm same.
As far as chance of fighting a martial artist? Well it's same chance as fighting someone with a gun or with friends(even more likely) and in that situation it still doesn't really matter. When you lie on the ground dead you can be a world kickboxing champ it still doesn't make a difference (as it was unfortunately demonstated). If your opponent's friend clocks you out with a bar stool from behind and then proccedes to soccer kick you while you have a concussion it still doesn't matter what you did and what you trained.
You can't be prepared for all. Everything we train is a sport. Read the military hth killing manual. It's rather different then any martial art i know. So enjoy your sport. Train it. Have fun with it. And hope that when the time comes the situation will be favourable to apply what you have learned to save your ass.
As far as judo goes. Every sport evolves. This one chose to take the direction you see now. BJJ will also change. In fact I'm sure hardcore competitors in sport BJJ don't care if the helicopter armbar is usefull in a street fight or not. They are there to win in the sport, based on the sport rules. If rules change tomorow they will grunt and adjust and play by new rules. It's nature of all sports. It will be a factor when BJJ will true and credible internataional gov body and they will sit there and think how to make BJJ comps more entertaining and safe. The ideology behind most sports is there but the older it gets the least relevant it becomes.
I've been squeezed so hard in pins that i couldn't inhale once i've exhaled.
I think they're pretty valid :)
Nullmad: Good point re: most Judoka having the skills to beat most untrained people on the ground. That's a compelling point for most Judo people on here.
Just as compelling as BJJ has, more often than not, better newaza than Judo.
I've tapped to a pin, but the guy had 2 bjj belt ranks and 10kgs on me.