I was so looking forward to seeing the pinnacle of worldwide judo competition but now I'm saddened to see that the rules (or the interpretation of them by the referee) are destroying a great martial art.
A) Ude-grami/kimura is allowed. So is omaplata so i gogoplata. Stop being ignorant.
b) WHO IN BLAZES CARES IF IT'S REALISTIC? Sheesh. It's a sport. Ohh if i fall and you got my back i'm in a bad situation? Oki. I guess I'll drop you back first onto a sharp curb. Let's see how you are going to grapple me with a broken back. That's beside the point even. Who cares? Is wrestling realistic? Do you complain about it. They don't do subs pretty much at all. Is BJJ realistic for the street? I'll say yes if i see a competition where knifes are allowed. Or kimbo style pepper spray. It's a sport, apretiate it for what it is. There are no realistic sports.
(p.s. while i'm editing. Slam from triangles anyone?)
This silly debate has gone on for years here. Nothing going to change
it. But, yet again...
Legitimate Japanese jujutsu was about getting arm or arms free to
draw your sword. This is why there are so many defenses from wrist
grabs in jujutsu. There were some leg trips and grappling in armor
with short swords/long knives; but that was it. It was never about
unarmed fighting, ever.When the sword ban went into place; THEN unarmed combat became
important. Many old style jujutsus began teaching unarmed combat,
and having NHB events to learn same.The END of jujutsu came in 1886 when Kano's group crushed the
jujutsu schools of the time. Yes, it took a bit for them to die off, but
they are now all dead. The very few still training are like the people
who go into the woods to play civil war. In truth, the style of "jujitsu"
in Japan, with the most people training, is BJJ!GJJ/BJJ did NOT come from ANY style of Jujutsu. This is historical
fact and from the time I said it first (10 years ago) to present, there is
NO evidence that ANY legitmate battlefield jujutsu ryu ever went to
Brazil. Madea was a Kodokan Judo Black Belt who went there to teach
Kodokan Judo. His own letters to the Kodokan prove this.Silly comments like "jujitsu is much more complex than judo" are
laughable in the context that sport judo and GJJ/BJJ came from the
EXACT same place; Kodokan Judo as created by Jigoro Kano.
The simple fact is that BOTH sports, Olympic Judo and GJJ/BJJ have
moved apart in the directions their countries took them. Neither is
good or bad, just different. Neither is a better "combative" art, as the
legitimate forms of combative Judo (as taught to me in the tokyo police
academy) are VERY different from both arts, as the belief is that the
opponent is armed and dangerous and there are no rules.
Why not applaud the fact that judo is on TV, and that is a good thing
for all? Rather than sink once more to the silly childish rants, and the
"my dad can beat your dad" baby boo stuff?
As John Saylor said so well "If people would train as much as they type
and talk trash, they would ALL be world champions."
Mark Tripp
mark T just threw down the ippon and tapped out the whole thread..
I started taking Judo after doing BJJ for 2 years. Dont get ne wrong, I left BJJ because my club closed down. But I was very surprissed at how well ground game has gotten at my local Judo clubs.
There have been many Bjj seminars in the club I train at.
If any of you go to Boston Mass. Look for Pedro Judo in Wakefield. The ground game there is impressive. And unlike other Judo clubs, they train ground ALOT! ( hence the reason why its owned by Jimmy Pedro, whos ground is phenominal.)
You wont be dissapointed.
Judo has evolved into a totally unrealistic to fighting tripping contest
Jimmy Pedro just won the bronze medal by tapping out his opponent on the mat.
WTF about ude-garami being allowed??? It hasn´t been in tournaments I have watched and sparring with many judoka they have said that only the straight armlocks are legal...
BTW congrats to Jimmy Pedro...
NullMad I think you are just being ignorant on sports not being realistic and stuff... compare taekwondo to muay thai and then tell me that they compare the same for real applications...
indrek..ude garami is allowed in judo competition...i am not sure where you get your information from, but check the thread by ben reinhardt who is an IJF ref..it answers a lot of ground questions..
ude garami is not only allowed, but probably the most common submission.
The guy above who cite Remco Pardo as an example of judo being lame or unrealistic . . .
All of Remcos european titles were in japanese jiujitu,he would get punked more easily in the Olympics than he did in the UFC.
The 'realism' argument is just purile. How often do people ever have uninterrupted fights for unlimited amounts of time . . . maybe back when we fought behind the junior highshool, but certainly not as adults.
Olympic judo is easily the most exciting grappling sport.
The amount of ignorance on this thread is amazing...
Thank you to the numerous people on here setting things straight.
The ude garami is an interesting debate. The rules clearly state the
only joint that can be locked is the elbow. Most ude garami's attack
the shoulder not the elbow. Were I a ref, and you did a "kimura" I'd call
it because the lock is on the shoulder not the elbow.
True ude garami for sport judo is more of a compression than a
twisting action, but I'd bet 99% of the ref's would let it go if you twisted
or compressed.
People who have seen me do use garami from the side mount (mune
gatame) know the difference. Once your arms are in place, rather than
lifting the elbow (that attacks the shoulder), G E N T L Y (this is bad on
the bar bell boys!) slide the entire arm down and the locked elbow into
the opponents hip/obi.
You will feel the difference quickly between true ude garami and a
shoulder crank.
MarkT,
I have also found the rules regarding Ude Garami confusing.
However, I have seen many variations of ude garami, like reverse ude garami (kimura) and "umoplata" in various "judo" books.
In Judo in Action by Kazuzo Kudo, he says that the key to ude garami is to "Maintain complete control of his shoulder"; which would imply that pressure is indeed placed on the shoulder.
In addition, the Kodokan's definition of ude garami contains the following text: "The opponent's arm can be bent upwards towards the head or down towards the legs. It often uses considerable twisting action that can injure the shoulder as well as the primary target of the elbow joint."
Considering that the Kodokan states that ude garami can be done both ways AND with a "twisting motion" that can injure the shoulder, how can this be considered illegal?
another mod to traditional ude garmai -
take the comon leylock grip on the 90 degree arm and now rotate the wrist so that his palm turns into face behind him. now crank the arm and you can immediately feel the pressure on the elbow vs. the shoulder.
the tap is also much faster.
luckypunch,
His name is Rhadi Ferguson and he fights at 100 kilos, so won't be fighting 'til Thursday. If he does well, he will get a lot of publicity. I used to train with him and he's a very cool guy.
Here's his Olympic Diary:
http://www.tech-fall.com/OlydiaryRhadi.html
Here's the story on how he won the Olympic Trials:
http://www.lloydirvin.com/olympics.htm
Here's his bio on the NBC website:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/athletebios/5019104/detail.html
Why do so many people insult Judo because its a sport and then make comparisons to BJJ as being more realistic? Its ridiculous!
Throws don't end a fight? Huh?! Ever been slammed hard on the mat where it takes your breath away? Imagine on the concrete against someone who has no concept of breakfalls! And then he has to contend with the follow up ground and pound!
Pinning is not realistic to a streetfight? Are you kidding?! If you slam someone on the pavement and then land on top of them and they can't escape and are basically helpless - you call that unrealistic? If you don't know how to grapple/escape a pin and I'm holding you down in a lowly "sporty" pin and I'm really pissed off at you - you're about to have a REAL bad day!
They are BOTH sports with sporting rules. Neither of them is TOTALLY like a streetfight. Would you jump to guard in a streetfight? No. Is slammimg someone in the Guard allowed? No. I let someone slam me from the Guard and he only lifted me about 3 or 4 feet. I was surprised how much force it was. Imagine on the concrete and lifting way up high! If you take someone's back is the guy allowed to stand up and then body slam backwards with all of his weight? If you are working the Triangle is your opponent allowed to pick you up and slam you against the wall or the concrete? No. How about this one: Do you think that jumping onto someone and wrapping your legs around them (Guard) and clinging to them like a momkey (WHILE THEY REMAIN STANDING!!) is actually realistic?! Don't you think that if you do that in a streetfight that you will be slammed with the full force and bodyweight of the other guy coming down on top of you?! All i gotta say is triple OUCH!! Think about it and all the hypocritical nonsense that you guys are spewing out here.
There are techniques such as turtling and flopping to guard that we use in tournaments but not in a streetfight. We know the difference here between a sport and the street. All sport fighting has techniques specifically for the tournament zone. Don't think people are that stupid to not know the difference and not know when to use or don't use them.
This bullshit has got to stop. Give it a fucking rest already. Judo and BJJ are BOTH sports and BOTH martial arts. They BOTH contain great techniques and BOTH have sporting only techniques. They BOTH have strengths and BOTH have weaknesses. I love them both. They are from the same family and good fighting arts. We should be talking about sharing techniques and working together instead of all this BULLSHIT!
If you were smart, you would STFU already and train in BOTH!
Amen Michael, these sound like children who barely train.
Well, it is illegal under CURRENT rules. You can only lock the elbow in
modern sport judo. Most ude garami attack the shoulder.
BUT
No one is going to call it, even though some of them applied clearly are
attacking a joint other than the elbow.
The old judo text showed many locks. I have old judo books that
explain finger, neck, and leg locks. The reprint of Mifune Sensei's
book shows leg locks.
However, sooner or later someone is going to make a stink about the
shoulder/elbow thing.
Read my post over and see that there are some points noone has elaborated on - btw. why the hatred? I didn´t badmouth judo I just gave my opinion on the current sport rules...
btw.. watched Judo today -57/-73...some matches most of the matches ended up by shido points... :( That is why I find the sport not so exciting with the current rules...
btw. I kinda disagree with some of your points Michael but since it is the internet let it be...
bout´the ude garami ... I am from Estonia... you judofans should know we have good judoka here... I asked the youngsters national team coach about the submissions and when shown kimura he said no... only straight elbow locks... but I really don´t care about it that much...
Well if you fighting unskilled person on the street a solid TKD spin kick will knock the drunk on his ass just as well as a Thai head kick. And if the attacker uses say a crowbar or bbat or has mace/pepper spray or a knife on him both could get you in trouble equaly. But that's not the point. I was comparing BJJ and Judo and both concentrate on just parts of the complete game and both have some pretty big assumptions about what is realistic(if they are made at all outside the forums). MMA isn't realistic. Even under vale tudo rules. It's closer but it's still not realistic. Judging sports on that is silly beyond belief. And judging which one is closer is also pointless. A chance that you will randomly end up fighting a TKDer or a BJJer on the street is so small. So saying one will protect you better then the other is really only marginaly true, if at all.
I think i'll skip watching Olympic Weightlifting this year. It's not realistic. Where are you going to find a perfectly symetrical bar when lifting weights in the real world.
(remembers a thread where after recieving a beating the loosing party retreated to their car and ran over one of the winners. I wonder if the winner was bjjers or tkder or muay thai or judo or mmaer. I wonder if it made a difference when he got hit)