orcus - "The trade off is restart to the center of the ring or have guys pressed up against the cage for 60 seconds. Which is more boring?"
I've seen guys pressed up against the ropes for more than 60 seconds (Barnett vs Crocop II comes to mind), so it seems like the ropes have the worst of both worlds.
But yes, interrupting the action is worse. When guys are broken up in a cage, it's because there is NO action. Guys are broken up in a ring WHILE they are doing something, GnP, going for sub, whatever, because the stupid ropes are in the way. There is no way the restart doesn't have an effect, the guy in the bad position has time to reset, to compose himself, to think of how to escape; the momentum is lost.
Plus it looks retarded as hell.
" In every major sport I can think of there are CONSTANT resets/restarts. Literally non-stop interference with "the flow" - even boxing."
The interference in boxing comes when the fighters do things they are not allowed to do. Not when the chosen venue itself becomes a problem.
The only advantages of the ring are for the live audience, and to make it harder to run away. And the latter can be addressed with a cage of fewer sides or smaller diameter. Hell, even make the cage a square, I don't care.
A handful of fights had some stalling against the ropes. The vast majority never got there on the feet and I can't remember and rash of fighters GnPing or getting a sub that was interfered with by the ropes. The reality is that the nature of the cage draws fighters to it. You can just push as hard as you can against a guy and you will have him in a very bad postion (back against a wall) where it will be difficult for him to work out of (because the cage limits movement). The ropes are more flexible and allows more arm and back movement to pummel and people don't just shoot and then push until they hit the ropes because it is not much of an advantage.
You explanation of what happens in boxing is misleading. It is not always about not doing what you are supposed to. The venue has a natural flow to it. Boxers ALWAYS end up in the corners and against the ropes, because they are
intentionally cutting their opponents off so they can hit them. Once they are there clinching naturally occurs.
A cage natural moves fighters against the fence because it is a solid border that benefits the fighter who can push his opponent up against it. This is why we see probably 60%+ of fight time spent up against the cage even in good, action packed fights.
Athletes almost always push to the limits of the playing field they are in. When you turn that limit into a wall you end up with fighters pressed against a wall...
"A handful of fights had some stalling against the ropes. The vast majority never got there on the feet and I can't remember and rash of fighters GnPing or getting a sub that was interfered with by the ropes."
The point is there is absolutely nothing about ropes that prevents stalling. It happened in Pride, and as you yourself said, in boxing (and presumably kickboxing) "Boxers ALWAYS end up in the corners and against the ropes", requiring the ref to break them up from the clinching that "naturally" occurs. It sounds from your description that the ropes actually CAUSE clinching/stalling against them, exactly the opposite of what you're trying to argue.
On the flip side, there certainly IS something about ropes that CAUSES necessary restarts when fighters get tangled in them or are going through them. Nothing more retarded than seeing a guy going for a submission, then getting the tap on the shoulder, both guys crawling or buttscooting to the middle of the ring and being manipulated into position -- as though the momentum hasn't entirely changed during this time.
As usual you confuse Pride's correlation with cause. If fights didn't have as much stalling, there's no reason to assume the ropes had ANYTHING to do with it -- certainly not compared to the fact that the vast majority of matchups had different kinds of fighters than we see today, more style-vs-style types, certainly guys who were less well-rounded than today's, coming from entirely different backgrounds and training and fighting in entirely different ways for the most part.
"Athletes almost always push to the limits of the playing field they are in. When you turn that limit into a wall you end up with fighters pressed against a wall..."
Yes, and when you turn it into ropes, you will end up with fighters pressed against ropes (as in boxing, kickboxing, and MMA if you put today's fighters in a ring).
" Athletes almost always push to the limits of the playing field they are in. When you turn that limit into a wall you end up with fighters pressed against a wall..."
Why do you act like that's a bad thing? Not everybody acts like Handy.
A longtime fan such as yourself knows just as well as anyone that PLENTY of fights end against the cage.
I could post countless other gifs just like this illustrating this, my friend. I just happened to pick this one as it's a fellow white guy with a shaved head. :)
Altofsky - " Athletes almost always push to the limits of the playing field they are in. When you turn that limit into a wall you end up with fighters pressed against a wall..."
Why do you act like that's a bad thing? Not everybody acts like Handy.
A longtime fan such as yourself knows just as well as anyone that PLENTY of fights end against the cage.
I could post countless other gifs just like this illustrating this, my friend. I just happened to pick this one as it's a fellow white guy with a shaved head. :)
But too many do (act like Handy). Seriously, watch the next card and keep a rough estimate of time spent against the cage working for position that leads to nothing or a quick scoop takedown that ends up getting scooted out of. It adds up to A LOT of time my fren...
BTW: I find this hard to type because of the beauty of Nate's bald elbow power is stunning (no homo?)
The real point being, that there is PLENTY of cage action for those who are interested and fellers like yourself would watch fights in a ring so it wouldn't scare anyone off. Us ringophiles have NOTHING of merit nowadays and would swarm on good competition in a ring like a hobo on a ham sandwich. It would develop a strong loyalty among us, get a shit ton of word of mouth and would help OneFC differentiate itself from the UFC. They won't be able to compete with the level of competition of the UFC for years (if ever) so if they aren't different they will simply be perceived as less than........knowutumsayin?
orcus - The point is there is absolutely nothing about ropes that prevents stalling. It happened in Pride, and as you yourself said, in boxing (and presumably kickboxing) "Boxers ALWAYS end up in the corners and against the ropes", requiring the ref to break them up from the clinching that "naturally" occurs. It sounds from your description that the ropes actually CAUSE clinching/stalling against them, exactly the opposite of what you're trying to argue.
On the flip side, there certainly IS something about ropes that CAUSES necessary restarts when fighters get tangled in them or are going through them. Nothing more retarded than seeing a guy going for a submission, then getting the tap on the shoulder, both guys crawling or buttscooting to the middle of the ring and being manipulated into position -- as though the momentum hasn't entirely changed during this time.
As usual you confuse Pride's correlation with cause. If fights didn't have as much stalling, there's no reason to assume the ropes had ANYTHING to do with it -- certainly not compared to the fact that the vast majority of matchups had different kinds of fighters than we see today, more style-vs-style types, certainly guys who were less well-rounded than today's, coming from entirely different backgrounds and training and fighting in entirely different ways for the most part.
"Athletes almost always push to the limits of the playing field they are in. When you turn that limit into a wall you end up with fighters pressed against a wall..."
Yes, and when you turn it into ropes, you will end up with fighters pressed against ropes (as in boxing, kickboxing, and MMA if you put today's fighters in a ring).
Extremely inaccurate. Ropes have a ton of give (even tight ropes). That allows fighters to pivot off ot them. They also have a ton of space between them too. This allows fighters to pummel easier, clinch better and arch their backs to generate torque and power. Your feet can also go beack further than the rest of your body when you are pressed against them allowing fighters to not "lose their hips" as they are sprawling.
All these things are LOST when you are pushed against a cage:
- Your feet are vertical with your hips.
- You can't move your arms behind you,
- You can't arch your back
- You can't pivot
These are HUGE in defending against a guy who wants to Press 'n Pray against them. It allows fighters an easy way to escape using technique and not just brute strength. Also, fighters can't just drop from the clinch and work endlessly for a takedown because you are trapped against a wall. A fighter dropping down for a takedown would end up losing control of the other fighter. Fighters USE the cage to assist their takedowns and gameplan. That's not good. In a ring, only the corners reduce some of this and that's really only your ability to pivot.
Theseare critical in how a fight plays out. And I can't remember a time when a fighter was going for a sub or really GnPing a guy and the action was stopped for a restart in PRIDE or DREAM. Mostly I remember guys getting their heads stomped or punched in sticking them outide the ropes...So I don't think that was much of a statistically significant occurance...
tenchu - Haulport - Well we have soccer kicks back, but now it's time for OneFC to go full PRIDE:
- in the ring!!!!!!!!!
- 10 min first round!!!
I know a few guys have connections with Victor so PLEASE let him understand that MMA doesn't need abother UFC-lite...
It NEEDS something DIFFERENT!
Yes, let's be different by looking like boxing.
Lol.
Is that supposed to be a serious comment?
I have one guy on one thread who doesn't understand basic math and now I have another guy on this thread who doesn't understand the definition of the word different....................