sometimes i think it would be beneficial
werdum arlovski comes to mind - werdum was no-where near getting a takedown, in the last round if he could clinch and pull guard i'd think he would have done much better than he actually did
to pull guard you need one first
The best example of a fighter who should have pulled guard was Diego when he fough Koscheck. The 10 seconds they were on the ground Diego had Josh in a ton of trouble. Yet he decide to scrap on the feet for the rest of the fight.
Also pulling guard is a horrible idea if you have a horrible guard. Fighters like Aoki, Imanari, Yoshida (Barret), Nogiera all have very active guards and clearly spend lots of time there.
"Also pulling guard is a horrible idea if you have a horrible guard. Fighters like Aoki, Imanari, Yoshida (Barret), Nogiera all have very active guards and clearly spend lots of time there."
Exactly.
Aoki is not a good comparison to a bjj fighter - as a judo player he can fight standing, if he is on his back it is because he sees an advantage to be gained by being there - he does not have to be there.
Once on the ground, Aoki's use of judo techniques such as controlling an opponent with his leg over a shoulder will usually result in a submission.
"but for the pure beauty of the sport id like to see an offensive move made to get it to the ground"
Pulling guard is more offensive than circling endlessly, ala Werdum.
Don't pull guard... you'll have to clinch first, and that means you'll be in danger of getting punched. Instead, follow these instructions:
Bell rings, tap gloves.
Back up immediately, to create space.
Sit down.
Forward buttscoot.
Keep at it long enough, and eventually your opponent will fall into your guard. No clinching required, guaranteed.
If you're serious about training this technique, 10th Planet offers classes on the special "rubber buttscoot"... it'll get your ass bouncing around the canvas in no time.
very under-rated strategy.
A classic example is how much better off diego would have been pulling guard on koscheck.
If you want to see how to pull guard right, watch Lister vs. Sakara. Shoot and snag it off the sprawl.
LMAO at pulling guard with Koscheck. Please explain to me how you are gonna pull guard on a guy who is 100X the wrestler you are, doesn't want to get within 6 feet of you, isn't gonna clinch with you, can push you off of him like a rag doll if you try, and is blasting you with straights and jabs all night. Good luck pulling guard on a guy like that.
He explained it already. Shoot and then slip underneath to pull guard. If Diego shot, Koscheck certainly would have sprawled, and Diego could have transitioned from there to pull him into guard.
It's a hell of a lot better strategy than get jabbed to death for 15 minutes.
"Aoki is not a good comparison to a bjj fighter - as a judo player he can fight standing, if he is on his back it is because he sees an advantage to be gained by being there - he does not have to be there.
Once on the ground, Aoki's use of judo techniques such as controlling an opponent with his leg over a shoulder will usually result in a submission."
WTF? A BJJ black belt not using BJJ techniques. Am I missing something?
The guard is BJJ, not Judo. Aoki uses BJJ. dumbass.
Yeah, Aoki does it and everyone champions the fuck out of him.
I hope we see more of it from grapplers. Like whoever fight Houston Alexander next, TD and if not pull guard.
cut down on the spliff dude. judo guys were using that position before there WAS brazilian jiujitsu.
just because you name it doesn't mean you invented it.
Karo trains catch with Barnett.
a lot of valid points made by eddie and others, but i think the key thing to remember is that, using modern methods, guys hit 10 times as hard as they used to with GnP. changes the game a lot. GnP defense has increased, but GnP delivery has more than kept pace.
It seems people don't want to pull guard or even go to the ground anymore because it's not popular. It seems everybody these days wants to be an exciting stand up fighter. Everybody wants that KO.
I believe that's why people like Joe Lauzon and the Diaz brother will be a great future for the sport. They have good striking ability to stand up with guys, but have an EXCELLENT ground game.
I think you'll see the popularity of the ground game and pulling guard swapping back and forth in popularity with striking.
GnP is over-rated. If you look honestly how many fights end by GnP in the last year that weren't a result of already having the guy rocked, it's less then 5%(guess-timating) versus fights that end by submission from the guard which is above 5%, i'm sure.
If you've got a guard anywhere in the direction of Aoki or Lister, and you're losing the stand-up battle against a guy with a weak ground game, you're an idiot for not pulling guard. Change strategies.
The problem is people have this stigma with guard-pulling. If you got good a good guard, you just got a new roll of the dice versus trying to hold out in a losing stand up battle.
thoughtful post by deadspook, but i must contest the conclusions of your stats. good GnP, like good bodypunching, wears an opponent down, and creates opportunities for all your other finishes. in addition to the obvious Gracie GnP to Armbar/RNC, would Jens have dropped his hands like that against Lauzon if he wasn't concerned about the consequences of having Lauzon on top of him again?
it's not GnP versus subs usually, it's usually GnP creating many more Submission opportunities.
"GnP is over-rated."
said by a guy that has never had a Hammer House wrestler on top of him!
and besides, the game is a fluid and evolving thing. for example, todays jiujitsu is MUCH tighter than the the jiujitsu of 10 years ago. but the GnP has evolved even more. even if your analysis WAS accurate at some point, i don't think it's accurate anymore. or will be in the future of the sport.
Ghidorah, that was exactly my thought when I saw the thread title.
The tactic that Diego should have used against Kos when he saw that he couldn't get the takedown was to throw a high or body kick. Kos's wrestling instinct would have taken over and he would have dropped straight into Diego's guard.