Pulling Guard In MMA?

Underground
61

Gannon: Are you referencing the single percentage point figures of subs in Judo that appear on Youtube? Cos that's not a true sample of the ebb and flow of a Judo match... I can show u HL clips of MMA that make it seem like it has top notch striking too - but it's not really the case.

"and you can watch numerous judo subs from what BJJ calls guard. you can also find old judo texts demonstrating the position BEFORE bjj existed."

What's relevant is what's being taught now - the here and now... Plenty of subs are painted on ancient greek walls to, but we don't call those moves coming from pankration. Hell, reems of moves appear in catch wrestling texts from the beginning of the century too. However, those moves didn't incorporate a system to allow them to work well in mma and fighting, which is what BJJ provided.

62

Omoplata is an option people are not using from guard but when they do we will see a changing of the the guard and more people will use it to sweep or master the escapes to gain top position.

I'm guessing the omoplata set ups for MMA could be used

1-After an armbar or triangle failed attempt.

2-After a the kimura,guillotine,crusifix sweep combo attempt fails.

#3-From Eddie Bravo's chilldog or mission control set up.

63

Pulsar, Aoki was effectively using these techniques in high level judo competitions long before he started also training in bjj or anyone had ever heard of Eddie Bravo.

64

Pulling guard is frowned upon by almost everybody except me and Eddie. But Its like this:

The guys that are good enough to pull guard are afraid to get hit so they have no confidence in their subs; therefore end up taking a beating.

The guys that are tough enough to take a beating in their guard normally would rather no be in their guard; therefore, never practice subs from there.

The end result, we rarely get to see beautiful guard technique in fights anymore.

Din Thomas

65

Koga: I bet he did, Aoki's obviously amazingly talented... I wasn't actually arguing against Aoki or anything, but in Judo did he pull guard and sub people? I'd LOVE to see a clip or two of that.

Couldn't agree more with Din.

People probably think it's 'puss' to pull guard, I think doing what Koscheck did against Sanchez was just as cheap or pussified... Bottom line is if your skills are there use them!

66

IMO the reason people get their asses handed to them in guard is that they are either (a) not good at guard, or (b) good at traditional bjj guard, which is very passive techinical guard.

The people who use guards successfully in mma have insanely offensive and dangerous guards. I have never been to a BJJ school where I would of been able to get away with such violent and aggressive guards, I would of been kicked out day 1. Face it, traditional BJJ guards are going the route of a TMA.

The best guards take the explosiveness and strength of wrestling and match it with just sick BJJ technique. These modern guards dont wait for openings, they create them. Most people who take BJJ dont want a class that's as explosive as college wrestling, they want a knitting class with some grappling sprinkled in.

So where can you learn this guard? The only place I could think of is in truely revolution schools such as eddies, or hardcore training camps where the guard is drilled often. Either way, it's rare right now. I would also think getting good with these guards is much harder then getting good with striking, just because it's so much more complex..

RIP traditional lazy TMA BJJ guard.

67

I think it's the fact that sub defense has gotten a lot better. A lot of guys
now are doing better of posturing out of the armbar and triangle
attempts.
A good example is when Lister fought Marquart. Dean pulled guard, but
Nate was able to keep pressure on Dean and basically stall from the top,
until there was a standup.

68

"The reason is that it's ALWAYS better to be on top."

"There's quite a few successful MMA guys that would disagree with that. Nogueira and Aoki for a start."

"On top is better, but MMa is about using your skills to win, so take the fight to take best advantage of your talents. All quite logical."

well put Pulsar

"gannon: that's not a true sample of the ebb and flow of a Judo match... I can show u HL clips of MMA that make it seem like it has top notch striking too - but it's not really the case."

absolutey true, which is why i chose the words i did. you can indded find "numerous" examples of good subs in Judo on Youtube. if i believed "most" judo matches ended in sub, thats what i would have said. i mean what i say, and i say what i mean.

"and you can watch numerous judo subs from what BJJ calls guard. you can also find old judo texts demonstrating the position BEFORE bjj existed."

"What's relevant is what's being taught now - the here and now..."

"However, those moves didn't incorporate a system to allow them to work well in mma and fighting, which is what BJJ provided."

exactly my point. the "position" of Rubber Guard existed long b4 eddie, but did the modern RG game exist b4 eddie? no. how much do you have transfrom something before it's something completely different? that is why i credit eddie as an "innovator" that "revolutionized" and "dramaticly improved" the RG game.

this properly credits Eddie with what he has created, while still properly crediting the jiujitsu and judoka that pioneered the position b4 him.

you could accurately say Eddie created the "Modern Rubber Guard Game" without slighting anyone.

69

"Pulsar, Aoki was effectively using these techniques in high level judo competitions long before he started also training in bjj or anyone had ever heard of Eddie Bravo. "

true, but was he really as good at it in the pre-eddie era? was anyone?

see above post.

70

"Eddie, please, hook this kid up with some better spliff! the stuff he's smoking obviously has household chemicals that are rotting his brain. he needs some special Eddie Bravo Primo Gold! that will clear his head and let him focus on learning his jiujitsu! "

actually, we might need something stronger. whats the next step up? Rogan's Whisker? any other suggestions to cure what ails him?

71

"exactly my point. the "position" of Rubber Guard existed long b4 eddie, but did the modern RG game exist b4 eddie? no. how much do you have transfrom something before it's something completely different? that is why i credit eddie as an "innovator" that "revolutionized" and "dramaticly improved" the RG game. "

This is what I was saying about Aoki's guard. Your saying that these techniques existed in judo form prior to BJJ, but can you honestly say that it was judo that made Aoki's guard good?

guard work=BJJ. We all know that Judo and BJJ came from the same parent but there not the same art.
Aoki's judo background HELPED him grasp BJJ techniques better than the average person, but he still had to learn BJJ (He's a Yuki Nakai Black belt)

72

(He's a Yuki Nakai Black belt).. I didn't know that.. Cool.

73

Din Thomas pulled guard effectively to help him win his fight against Stephens this weekend. He also did it against Mikey Burnett on TUF 4.

Haha, I didn't even notice Din posted on this thread.

74

din is correct.

75

"Gladiator Gannon, The point in judo is to throw someone and pin. If judoka ends up on the ground it will be from the turtle since they only have 15 seconds on the ground. If you do have a sub all you have to do is lift the guy and the match is reset. so answer me this question, where do judo players learn to fight from the guard? since you were just kissing Eddie's butt, try asking him. I bet Eddie, being a BJJ black belt knows Aoki's techniques. In fact it looks closer to Eddie's style than judo. "
like i said, you've got to lighten up on the spliff. you're getting so out of touch with reality, you must have some crazy stuff laced with some really bad shit.

have you ever SEEN a judo match? if you have, you were obviously too high to pay attention.

" The point in judo is to throw someone and pin."

absolutely ridiculous and wrong. the point of Judo is execute a perfect throw and land your opponent squarely on his back. this is called Ippon. groundwork only occurs if your throw was considered insufficient to end the match, so claiming that pinning is Judo's goal is obvious BS.

the next obvious piece of BS is that it is impossible for a Judoka to land in anything but a turtle. if that were true, most of Judo's scoring system for throws wouldn't exist. common sense and physics should tell you that no style can automaticly guarantee that you will land in turtle every time.

"they only have 15 seconds on the ground"

also wrong. please research before posting such nonsense.

"If you do have a sub all you have to do is lift the guy and the match is reset. so answer me this question, where do judo players learn to fight from the guard?"

i don't have to ask them, i've WATCHED them do it over and over again. again, do some research, get on YouTube, and you can watch numerous judo subs from what BJJ calls guard. you can also find old judo texts demonstrating the position BEFORE bjj existed.

lol @ GG learning judo from youtube. ask anyone that knoes judo about the rules.

76

spliff, Eddie must have gotten you the Bravo Primo Gold by special delivery, because you're suddenly sounding a hell of a lot smarter. i'm getting the impression now that you're actually an intelligent, educated person that was just making the mistake of trying to be a little too authoritative about a very complex subject. you do know what you're talking about (somewhat), but the martial arts are a VERY broad subject, and it's REALLY hard to be thoroughly knowledgable in every aspect of it. thats why i always try to keep a "white belt attitude". i'm here to learn too.

have some counterpoints to make, will write them later.

77

"Koga: I bet he did, Aoki's obviously amazingly talented... I wasn't actually arguing against Aoki or anything, but in Judo did he pull guard and sub people? I'd LOVE to see a clip or two of that."

There are HLs of Aoki in judo floating on the Tube doing lots of jump guard armbars, flying armbars, etc.

As far as pulling guard, whatever works or helps you win the fight! Simple. Stalling is stalling though too.

78

doh! just got your nasty comeback on page 5. i shouldn't have been so polite! Eddie, this guy needs to "chill dawg" and the Bravo Primo Gold isn't cutting it. you better send some Rogan's Whisker!

spliff, you're probably an intelligent dude that just has the arrogance of youth.

let me introduce you to the UG. in MMA, this is where the "cool kids hang out in the lunch room", and you've really got to know your shit if you want to hang here.

just so you know, when you discuss UFC fights and fight technique here, the fighter himself frequently comments to give his technical breakdown. that "Din Thomas" screen name is GREEN. that means thats not a Din Thomas fan, that IS din thomas telling you how he pulled guard in the last UFC.

when you discuss the merits of the Eddie Bravo rubber guard here, Eddie himself may comment.

79

Here you go, Puls: http://youtube.com/watch?v=8I4bVSP2ReM

80

"lol @ GG learning judo from youtube. ask anyone that knoes judo about the rules. "

do you know what the green name means? sometimes it means it's someone like Din Thomas. sometimes it means the guy you're arguing with about Judo rules may have years of judo and judo titles behind him, a couple of NAGA World Titles, 20 years in the martial arts, and be a UFC Vet himself.

i didn't learn my judo on YouTube, video is just a tool i use to educate the ignorant. we can argue about it all day in a giant "JKD Jedi" circle jerk, or you can just look at the tape and see that i'm right.

these are the big leagues kid, and you have to do your research and really know your $hit if you want to hang here.